Deep Sea Research - MP

[Zombie13]

Alrighty, now this map I have just made the hull for you guys will like a lot more, its more QW like in terms of gameplay, plenty of areas for you rocket jumping monkeys to get to, and good flow. hopefully by the weekend I will have some progress shots.

Its not going to be set on mars or hell though, but it will have a lab type theme, BUT its set on Earth in a secrect underwater research facility where the UAC sent back demon specemins to study. so stay tuned, and this time you guys can be the testers, cause you are a good lot :D

Zombie

[D3C0Y]

dang i had a similair idea for a map :p, but i'm gonna pass on it... gl and i hope u make a hell of a map !

[Zombie13]

outdated

[zeh]

Wow. Really great. And if it plays like QW then.. hm.. I can barely wait.

[rgoer]

Cool idea Z, just a minor nitpick:

http://webpages.charter.net/rgoer/z13_diagonals.jpg

[Zombie13]

oooh good idea rgoer, thanks man :)

/me looks for a funky texture

Zombie

[Zombie13]

Ok I've done quite a bit more, so I will have some new screens coming later today, trying to get this map in beta condition before the weekend.

Zombie

[Zombie13]

btw.... miss you rgoer on #qer... place just doesnt feel teh same without j00.

Zombie

[Zombie13]

just a minor update:

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00122.jpg
http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00123.jpg

Z

[JMW]

Zombie,

Nice pics, I like the blue.
From the topics, it looks like you are working on 2 maps at the same time?
Is that something you regulary do?

-JMW
www.jmwrightdesigns.com

[Zombie13]

Zombie,

Nice pics, I like the blue.
From the topics, it looks like you are working on 2 maps at the same time?
Is that something you regulary do?

-JMW
www.jmwrightdesigns.com

Thanks, no I usually do work on a few at once, but this time I am just working on one at a time, just taking it easy :)

Z

[Wils]

Couple of suggestions for your perusal...

There are some nice skylights in mars_city1.map you could use for reference to make yours look a little more interesting:
http://home.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/skylight.jpg

The lump of mars terrain from the opening sequence is available as a model. If you have any corridors where vis is particularly solid, a window looking out onto this (albiet lit in blue with an underwater fog thing going on) would be extremely cool:
http://home.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/outside_terrain.jpg

[Zombie13]

Hrmmm top idea, thanks Wils :)

Z

[def46]

, a window looking out onto this (albiet lit in blue with an underwater fog thing going on) would be extremely cool:

*drools*

PS: there's a 'dust' shader or light texture or something I saw that looks like dust showing through the spot light, somewhere in the game, that would probabyl work great in the water as well to simulate the 'plankton' in the sea water

[Zombie13]

Hrmm I'm actaully having some trouble making thin density fog....

Z

[Zombie13]

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00145.jpg

Hell Knight incubation room is well under way :)

Z

[D3C0Y]

i see alot of sparklies on the left side of your screen ...

( in case u don't know what they are http://www.wolfensteinx.com/surface/tutorials/sparklies.html )

[Domipheus]

i see alot of sparklies on the left side of your screen ...

( in case u don't know what they are http://www.wolfensteinx.com/surface/tutorials/sparklies.html )

where?

[Zombie13]

where? remember it's a really low quality jpg... what ever you are seeing might be the image itself, I don't let sparkles through, and yes I do know what they are :)

Z

[D3C0Y]

ok then it's prob the image :p

[Zombie13]

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00146.jpg
http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00147.jpg

Basicly complete, prolly come back to this area for touchups if I find them :)

Z

[heXum]

That room looks pretty sexy

[Zombie13]

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00157.jpg
http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/shot00159.jpg

Still working on the top one

Z

[JMW]

just a quick question concerning the monsters.

Do they show up in multiplayer? And if so, then are they just standard monsters or some type of MP monster that wont try to attack?

-JMW
www.jmwrightdesigns.com

[Davros]

if you really need to add monsters then use a non animated one, it would be a waste otherwise when it adds nothing to the gameplay. However, the incubation room is looking cool. in the later two pictures; where are the blue lights coming from? the majority of light fixtures are yellow. otherwise nice work Zombie :) *edit* ok the celing lights seem to be blue but arent very noticible from the shots :D

[Zombie13]

Thanks Torchy :)

Yeah I am thinking about using non-animated ones except for the hell knight only cause his idle animations do look really cool, I've changed the lighting somewhat since those shots, I'll update it when it goes beta which is a few days now :)

And yes monsters do show up in MP.

Z

[wviperw]

Looking pretty good overall. My only beef is that the lighting is looking sort of tacky in those last few shots, as a result of you trying to jam in 3-4 color schemes in one area. Try to watch out for all the abrupt changes in color of lighting, as well as keeping consistency in lighting theme.

[Zombie13]

Thanks for the advice, I've done that, made more of a subtle blend between then colours so i'ts not AS drastic anymore :)

Z

[Zombie13]

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2_beta_1.rar ok here she is, be gentle though, she's only beta and sorry for the large map file at 7.6mb for modem people.

Enjoy :)

Z

[Wils]

Few bits of feedback:

Consider clipping the stairs, where they aren't too steep. Clipped stairs can be annoying in some circumstances because it'll bounce you up quite high and you lose forward momentum (Doom 3 suffers from this more than, say, QW) but in the majority of cases it smooths movement out enormously - try bouncing up a set of stairs that haven't been clpped properly and compare it to a set that has. You'll get caught on the stair edges all the time on the unclipped set (again, this is more of a problem with Doom 3 than other id games - Quake 3 is really forgiving of stair edge collisions, for example).

Some of the doorways and corridors have quite low ceilings - it's easy to get caught on them as you go bouncing round.

The glass flooring in some of the atriums looks cool, but it needs clipping for the same reason as the stairs - you can catch on the edges and come to a grinding halt.

Try not to rely on doors too much - they can be somewhat helpful for performance if you expect them to be shut most of the time, but they're no fix for lazy portal arrangement. They also have a tendency to split up the map into distinct areas, and if you have too many you'll lose all pace from a map because players are always stopping to move carefully from one area into another. Used sparingly they add a lot of tension, which can be good.

Make doorways and entrances obvious to players by using lights to highlight them, or other obvious markers such as floor texturing or decals. Some of the door models you've used look particularly wall-like, and are hard to make out until you're right on top of them and they open.

There are a couple of places where you can improve the portalling. I was able to position myself along certain paths such that I could see three or four portals behind each other, all open - that usually means you have a leak into that area that isn't covered by a portal, or the portals all overlap with each other and the game considers them all visible from most positions. Try to spread them out and move them around in the world so they overlap less.

There's some incidental detail around the edges of rooms and around floor panelling that sticks out and obstructs player movement - it looks cool, but it's overkill for a multiplayer map. If there's no gameplay reason for something to be there, and it's in the way, you should probably nuke it if you can't smoothly clip around it without it being too obvious.

Same thing with the platforms as with the doors - pick them out with lighting or other markings so players can see where they are.

Your stairs look a little big - are they 16 units each? Doom 3 uses 8 unit high stairs for the most part. There are also a couple of runs which have no supports, but I guess you've just not gotten around to those yet :)

Overall, the underwater theme hangs together well. It would be nice if it was a more obvious feature - make the windows a little more transparent so the detail behind them isn't lost, and try using some grime decals on any 'exterior' geometry to represent mould/lichen growth, etc.

The vertical element is cool - all the walkways should lead to some nice combat. When you work on weapon and item placement, see what ways you can induce players to move up and down the levels to get to the items they want. Putting all the health on the most exposed lower layer is an obvious trick (and overused as a result - I'm a little fed up of running round corners and seeing health orbs stacked against the wall, inviting you to go over there and get a rocket up the arse from the guy on the ledge above you :)).

[Zombie13]

heheheh excellent, great feedback, thanks heaps wils for the time :D

I did upload another beta fixing various things like the steps, I am thinking I might replace the steps in the beserk room and I'll work on these portals some more.

Cheers
Z

[Zombie13]

thought it'd be a good idea to link the new beta http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2-beta2.zip no fixes from Wils advice yet, but runs along the steps have been added a minor details and flaws fixed.

Z

[swelt]

What Wils said.

Also,
I'd raise your entities 16 units above the floor.
I found the framerate quite poor in a number of locations, obviously a key factor in MP.
I couldn't find a way into the little red room on the top level - I would have liked to have found a secret button to open that door with a powerup inside.
A number of your GUIs are interactive, but don't appear to do anything. Can they be told not to be interactive, or a different GUI used. Not a big issue.

Overall, a very nice looking map that might make for some fun FFA, but perhaps needs to focus more on gameplay and performance factors?

[Zombie13]

What Wils said.

Also,
I'd raise your entities 16 units above the floor.


Taken care of.


I found the framerate quite poor in a number of locations, obviously a key factor in MP.

Hrmm yeah, I tried to make it so I got atleast 20fps on the ultra setting, which it drops to 18 which isn't to bad on a FX5600, I will take another look at the lighting, which is better then it used to be, and the vis is a bit better now.


I couldn't find a way into the little red room on the top level - I would have liked to have found a secret button to open that door with a powerup inside.


That holds a dead cherub inside... didn't really have any plans to use it for a secret item or anything.... but I will see what happens.


A number of your GUIs are interactive, but don't appear to do anything. Can they be told not to be interactive, or a different GUI used. Not a big issue.


One GUI does something, but I guess you never had your speakers on to hear it :P

Thanks for the feedback :)

Z

[Zombie13]

ok new beta http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2-beta3.zip with fixes.

Z

[Zombie13]

Not sure if any has tested the 3rd beta, if you have can you please let me know, so I can release the final version this week thanks :D

Z

[swelt]

I did. Changes seemed good, though I still have performance issues (especially on the top level and in the RL atrium) and not all the stairs seemed to have been clipped.

[Wils]

I had a quick run round yesterday - I think you need to work on the layout a bit and remove some of the doorways which connect two big rooms directly - when those doors are open you end up drawing both rooms, which ends up being over 100k tris at times (with no players). Performance across the rest of the map is better, but still about 10k higher than I would feel comfortable with.

Regarding the layout, you have some dead space which it isn't worth the player getting too - I'd lose these areas, along with any non-significant corridors (ie ones which only contain a small ammo pickup or similar, rather than a weapon/armour/powerup). You may need to rejig the arrangement of the rooms to accomodate this.

If you're planning to release a version this week, it doesn't leave much time for item placement and tweaking. GL :)

[Zombie13]

yeah I think I might just bump it back into next week or when ever it's done, it's just really hard to make a MP map when 1) no one to play it with, and 2) a crappy net connection to even attempt to play with someone.

Z

[Zombie13]

Okay I changed some areas quite a bit and where I was getting about 20fps I get 30 almost hitting 40 and thats on high detail just figuring out a nice way to connect the main pit area with the other large atrium.

Z

[Zombie13]

Ok few improvements, like layout, it's a bit tighter, still got to go over item placement a bit, this version is more or less to see how it runs on other peoples pcs, most the max I saw is about 60k total scene tris, so it's quite an improvement, let me know how it runs http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2-beta4.zip :)

Z

[Wils]

Just had a run round. First impressions are good - layout's much more intuitive and performance is pretty much fixed. Cool :)

Item placement is going to be really important on this map, simply because it's so big. You're going to have to think about ways to push players together so there's a lot of action going on around the key items.

Some of the stairs are a little wide and look clumsy - you could try reducing them to normal Doom 3 widths and see if it works out.

The map still needs a big clipping pass to smooth out movement and fix the ledges and corners the player currently gets stuck on when moving quickly.

Here's a couple more suggestions, with screenshots:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/corridor_too_long.jpg
This end of the corridor doesn't go anywhere and can be annoying if you run full pelt into it expecting a doorway. Try pulling it forward level with the doorway to the right.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/stairs_too_wide.jpg
The stairs in this shot are particularly wide and look out of place. If you want to keep the space, perhaps putting some clipped off machinery along the right or left side would help.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/shortcut_suggestion.jpg
I keep wanting to jump up these boxes here :)
I've also outlined the sillouette of the stairs and walkway - it's really hard to see as you run into the room from this angle, Picking it out with a light would be nice - the player will always know where to run to then.

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wils/sd/possible_lift_positions.jpg
A lift at one of the two positions here would add a bit of extra connectivity. I don't know if it's needed, but it might be worth trying.

It's coming along nicely, overall. Take your time with it, though; it'd be a shame to waste all this effort by rushing it at the end :)

[Zombie13]

WHoa thanks Wils! your rock dude :D

:banana: :banana:

Yes I do want to take my time with it, as I know some people were busy I thought I'd tackle the performance first to get a rough idea then polish it up a bit more, going to rebuild some of those areas so it's less empty so to speak, thanks again man :D

Z

[Zombie13]

ok did some item tweaking on other fixes just need some feedback on item placement, some other people have said don't change a thing, but I want to hear some more http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2-item_test.zip please let me know what you think, so I can get into the polishing part :D

Z

[Davros]

layout is much better, there are a few more things you could do perhaps. i couldnt see any pickups ect in the room with the floor windows so its a bit pointless going in there, also the hole in the floor where you can drop down into the tight corridor area, perhaps put the armour below it so you have reason to drop down / wait for enemies above it. id make the water fog less opaque too, its still really hard to see any of the detail outside and i see you have a monster out in the water which you cant really notice :)

[swelt]

I second the feeling that the new layout is alot better. I think there's something not quite right about the top level now. The catwalk that used to lead into the top PG room seems odd. Item placement doesn't feel quite right yet. The SG room feels quite barren, given it's size - some shards perhaps? Also the top level platform with the plasma ammo crys out for something more significant. I reckon this could make a nice TDM ?map with the addition of a 2nd armour (where torchy suggested sounds good) and perhaps with a 2nd RL on that top level... though that may have a knock-on effect.

I've had a go myself at an item layout which I think would work very nicely for 2v2, possibly even cramped 4v4. Grab it here (http://www.swelt.nildram.co.uk/files/z13d3dm2-items-sw.zip) (map only). Feel free to use any of the ideas. Changes include the adding 2nd RL, 2nd MG, invis, armor; shifting RL, berserk, PG; misc shard tweaks. Debatable whether the invis is overkill, but it's not really that powerful and forces the team to choose whether they try to secure both PUs or just one.

Little bits: Texture on the CG room doors is too much like the wall texture. Exposed caulk at the aforementioned catwalk. Not keen on the 4-way screenshot as a load screen, bit of a mess. Clip under the RL floor.

[Zombie13]

Swelt, thanks for your input on the item layout seems to be ok I guess..... but again it's hard for me to test it, but I will take your word for it, I'll make this map focused on tdm, then polish it up some more, sometime in the future as I have no idea when I want to release another version of this map.

Z

[swelt]

I know some people that could help you get it tested. Since you are Oz, time zones don't make it easy but the d3euro guys, esp W4rh0g, have expressed an interest in the map and are looking for a maplist for an upcoming mini-2v2 compo. If you can get onto irc.quakenet.eu.org and into #doom3.euro you might be able to talk direct. If not, I would be happy to act as a middleman. Get together a version that you think is solid enough for online comp and we'll go from there.

One thing I learned when they did a 1v1 comp using both my maps: there are some important behaviour differences between running a map on a listen server and running a map as a client to a dedicated server. To test this:
download and install the new beta (backup doom3.exe and game00.pk4 if you want to be able to roll back after).
Edit mapcycle, adding your map. Instructions (http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&p=94509#94509).
Fire up doom3ded, si_map yourmap, spawnserver.
Fire up normal doom3 client and /connect 127.0.0.1
Run around and check that all your lovely effects still work as designed

[Zombie13]

ok I am there, thanks man for your support, really appreciate it :D

Z

[Zombie13]

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13dm2_2.jpg
http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/z13d3dm2_finalbeta.zip few fixes like thinner fog, some more performance enhancements, didn't really add anymore detail fue to the openess of the map, any extra detail wants to bring the fps down to a screaming hault, but I do say I have learnt my lesson on making such open maps in the future :o

Z

[swelt]

Looking good. Would be nice to see some 2v2 played on here to prove the item loadout before going final.

[Zombie13]

yeah it sure would, if you are around swelt, haul your ass on irc :D

Z

[Zombie13]

ok after a lot of play testing over the weekend at my lan, we finaly decided on a good layout for the map, so I have decided to give it a visual face lift:

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13d3dm2_2_181004.jpg

not sure when I will be done, but I hope to be done soon :)

Z

[swelt]

Remember to keep a close eye on the framerate! A great looking map with a great layout and poor performance is a poor map from a players point of view.

[Loffy]

fps IS king, indeed. But just look at that last picture. It's awesome. It's like being there, or looking at a high res-digital photo taken at the space station in question.

[Zombie13]

yeah it's the same as before, just better use of lighting, texturing and brush work, I ain't that stupid where I would make the newer version run slower ;)

Glad you like it :)

Z

[Zombie13]

Well today is the day I can finaly say it's done :D

Here are some screens to tie you over till I upload it:

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13d3dm2_1.jpg

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13d3dm2_2.jpg

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13d3dm2_3.jpg

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/shots/d3/z13d3dm2_4.jpg

Cheers

Z

[Zombie13]

Ok here is the final version, I hope you all enjoy it as much as I have played it, made it :D

http://zombie.bhdnet.com/mapfiles/doom3/z13d3dm2.zip

Z

EDIT: Thanks michi for the mini review, and thanks for taking my name away on the forums selection ;D

[michi.be]

[forced by zombie to post here] ;) ;)
great map. the ambient sounds kicks ass!
the clip brush right in front of the windows to minimice the weapon distorsion is a tricky idea.
im missing some railings at some points and maybe some water witch drips from pipes to underline the "underwater effect" or some plants in water tanks with some research equipment ( asmall lab or something). i only noticed some monitors standing around.
and there are maybe one or two rocket launchers to much (or i ran around in cicles and there is only one).
but overall a fun map with a good layout and hopefully i will find an online server to rock underwater. :D

[ildon]

:moo:
Much <3 for teh zombeh.

[swelt]

crossposted from comments on d3euro, apologies if you've seen this already:

This new version is almost a completely new map. IMO it's now too small for 2v2, the 2 RLs are way too close to each other and you've ditched several of the areas that gave the original map character.

Since this has been released as final, I think it would be good to release the version that was used in the D3Euro tourney (with only the minor changes to health that were mentioned) as z13d3dm3. And if it's not too late, move one of the RLs on this map so you at least can't see from one to the other.

I'm not saying I don't like the new map btw (looks nice, performance is mostly OK, item layout seems ok with the exception of the RLs) just that the previous incarnation was a better 2v2 map.

[Zombie13]

iildon: only cause you can't resist ;)

swelt: thanks, I read your feedback on d3euro.com just lost my password and couldn't reply, about the RL's well I did have the one in the middle where the chaingun was, but we decided that uptop was good spot for fun rocket duels, I know it's not really 2vs2 anymore, but it could be possible, it's good fun in 3 player thats for sure, and seeing it on a few servers now is both good and bad, good cause it's nice to see my maps on a few servers, and bad cause I can't go in and kick their asses :)

Z

[swelt]

Once you release a map as final, your options become very limited. Even worse with D3 than before thanks to the pure server issues. That's why I went for ages with my maps as release candidates - just to make sure they really were final. That's also why I suggested releasing the old 2v2 incarnation map as a z13d3dm3 - give it a new name. There seems to be a real shortage of competition standard 2v2 maps, and from the avi's I watched your map had looked pretty good gameplay wise.

[Zombie13]

hrmmm, yeah I Haven't actaully released the older verion as yet, I could brush it up a bit, it's just really sloppy brush work.. but I guess if people don't care I can give it a once over and finalise it.

Z

[carnage]

um there was something earlier about thin fog for water effect, well could that not be done using the wordspawn fog as long as the distance is set to far enough away then you should not notice it inside but when you look out the window to the distance you see it and light the model terain in blue/green so it looks underwater

[Zombie13]

Hrmm not quite sure I got what you mean, but I didn't use worldspawn fog, didn't know you could, I just use a fog shader for my lights, basicly that simple :)

Z

[carnage]

i may be confuse with another editor but i though that you couls place fog using a worldspawn key value

min distance of where the fog starts
max distance where the fog is too thick to see through

i thought it was for realy big maps where you need to put a max draw distance in to stop loads of brushes apearing

[nedd3h]

good map! plays well with my mod :)
This map is available to play on my modded Doom3 server in AUS.
http://ned.theoldergamers.com/static.php?page=doom3-neddoom3-server

Server will run to at least end of 08