Praetoria-Mission One: Bunker Hill

[Diego]

First off, yes, it is a very long name, but it was also in developement for a very long time ;) This map was originally the first section of one great big map. However, ET limitations and a healthy dose of reality forced me to break it up into separate missions.

It is a fairly large and open map so I hope people with older systems will not have too much trouble with it. All of the screenshots were taken at 1280x1024 resolution with full detail settings. The framerate that I get is in the upper-left corner of each image.

The map features spawn support for 32 players. So far, I have only tested it with 18. But it can even be a fun map with just 8 players. It just requires each team to alter their strategies a bit.

There is a 2 layer command map with the schematics for each floor of the bunker displayed to help you find your way around. All of the objectives are on the first layer so you should have no trouble finding them on the map.

It also has 2 scripted ending sequences for the allied air assault depending on the victor of the game. These occur "live" while you are in the middle of the game so you can continue to fight your enemies or stand back and enjoy the show without those annoying scores in the way. :)

http://webpages.charter.net/dt3d/Maps/praetoria_one/Images/P1_shot.jpg


Hi-res screenshots and an interactive command map with detailed objectives can be found here:
http://webpages.charter.net/dt3d/praetoria.html

The Mission Briefing contains the list of objectives and the credits for the major contributions to the map. The Map objectives link will take you to the interactive command map. From there you can browse around the environment, or click the "Start Briefing" link to see each objective in order accompanied by a screenshot. Click the screenshots to see it full screen in a new window.

Download the .pk3 file here:
http://turkeyfiles.escapedturkey.net/enemy-territory/etmain/praetoria_one.pk3


Diego

[nUllSkillZ]

Looks awesome.

[Magic]

I remember this one - it was some impressive screenshots.
Gonna download right away :)

[Constra]

Yea this map has some very nice SS's ;)

[nUllSkillZ]

So,e additional remarks / thoughts (haven't seen or played the map yet):
If the map is big it will be played on servers with high slot numbers.
So the spawnpoints might not be enough.
And the FPS could be a limiting factor.

[Donpedro]

35 Megabytes :O
Screenshots are impressive
Downloading :P

[Donpedro]

Congrat!!! Very great map :!:

[Donpedro]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3835/shot0030ep3.jpg
How about these blending patches? :roll:

[Erls]

One question: Do you see this map being able to handle 64? If not, would it handle 44?

Looks great.

[Flippy]

I must say, it's the best looking map ive ever seen... Everything looks awesome... the atmosphere, the river, the caves, everything looks extremely realistic..

But unfortunately the FPS was really bad imo :(
I got down to 20 FPS on some places, and thats with a Intel Core2Duo E6400 (2*2,13 GHz) - ATI Radeon X 1950XTX (515 MB), 2GB Ram...
I can run most games on max with over 80 FPS on this machine... and this map i got only 20 on places, in ET :P

So yeah... beautiful map but the FPS kills it imo :(
Maybe you should make the fog somewhat denser... i dunno...

[Diego]

I got down to 20 FPS on some places, and thats with a Intel Core2Duo E6400 (2*2,13 GHz) - ATI Radeon X 1950XTX (515 MB), 2GB Ram...
I can run most games on max with over 80 FPS on this machine... and this map i got only 20 on places, in ET :P


Sounds like you have a better machine than I do, but I have a better framerate. I'm running an AMD 64 3500 single core that is about 2 years old with 3GB of ram and an ATI X800XT (256 MB) that is also at least 2 years old. At 1280x1024 resolution and max settings, my frame rate never drops below 45. And that is only in the most extreme area looking from the cemetary all the way to the hill. On average, I get 80-120 fps with a typical drop to 60 fps when I am at the bunker looking all the way out to the Garrison. But I am rarely looking in one direction long enough to notice during a firefight.

One of the downsides to testing the map at work is we all have the same machine so noone ever had a problem with framerate there. I'm not surprised that someone would, just surprised that you do with your machine.

Decreasing the viewable distance with fog has always been an option that I have not ruled out. But it would drastically cut down on sniper capabilities. Right now, there is no fog clipping, it is just there to provide atmosphere and depth.


Try this for me:
Open up the shader file "praetoria_fx.shader". Scroll near to the bottom, you will see this shader:

//Atmosphere fog shader
textures/praetoria/fog
{
qer_editorimage textures/praetoria/editor_images/fog.tga
qer_trans .75
surfaceparm nolightmap
surfaceparm trans
surfaceparm nodraw
surfaceparm fog
surfaceparm nonsolid
surfaceparm noimpact
surfaceparm nomarks
cull disable
// fogparms ( 0.67 0.31 0.25 ) 7704
fogparms ( 0.67 0.31 0.25 ) 9000
}



Change that distance parameter from 9000 to 4500 and tell me what kind of frame rate boost you get when you are looking from the Main bunker across the river to the town. On my computer, my fps increased 30 frames to 90 fps in this area.

http://webpages.charter.net/dt3d/Maps/praetoria_one/Preview/fogtest.jpg

[Diego]

One question: Do you see this map being able to handle 64? If not, would it handle 44?

Looks great.

To be honest, I have no idea. I've never played on a 64 man server longer than 2 minutes because of all the arty spam and lag you get on them. But I've tried to build in enough alternate routes in and out of everything and keep a good balance between the spawn times and distances to the objectives. The allies spawns will constantly advance as they achieve objectives to keep the action intense. No body likes to run for 30 seconds just to die and do it again.

I did have the problem with the MAX_GAMESTATE_CHARS error a few months ago but that appeared to be caused by the overly detailed VO announcements. I drastically reduced those and even cut out a few constructables entities (Both MG's at the start and the wooden bridge were originally constructables). I have not had any problems with that error since then. But I think it is really hard for a mapper to design something right from the start that can play equally well on a 16 man server AND a 64 man server.

[Diego]

[img]
How about these blending patches? :roll:

What about them?

[Magic]

Have tested the map and its awsome.
The terraine has nice variations and looks very natural.
Same goes for the buildings - beautiful.
The command map is good - you can orient quit easy on it.
The map is big - but very easy to learn - you wont get lost on it.
The lowest fps i got was behind the church/cementary - 60-65 fps.
The models of the generator and the the radar control center was cool too.

I got sound from the allied cp before it was build.
Not sure i like the light on it - so red, the lights on the stairs inside the bunker either :oops:
But this is a great map - it will fit a public server well (gameplay) - it goes so fast to learn the objectives.
It will put your box on a test thow.

Thumbs up.

[Ryan]

Diego, what is your msn?

I need to talk to you :)
it's very interesting so plz add me
(see my signature for msn)

[Donpedro]

[img]
How about these blending patches? :roll:

What about them?
Is it normal?

[murka10]

i dont see anything wrong with them, describe what you see.

[Erls]

Diego, if you want to try out Bunker1. /connect bunker1.aaxxss.com

I run a crappy laptop, and hardly notice lag (perhaps 30 seconds a map, total). The arty/air is turned down on some maps, panzers descreased on others, etc..., for a balanced game. You won't be disappointed if you check it out.

My question was more about map size, etc... As in, is it more open, and geared more towards larger groupings (ie Fueldump), or more closed, and geared toward smaller amounts (ie battery).

[Ryan]

Come on msn :)
I have some questions for you

[MrLego]

Been waiting for this one for a while.

Great looking map.

:)

[Kic]

nice map

[Donpedro]

i dont see anything wrong with them, describe what you see.
Just look at the picture what i posted in page 1 :)

[murka10]

yes but what do you see strange there? low deatil?

[Donpedro]

No, just the transition is not smooth like this: http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8292/s2xz6.th.jpg

[Donpedro]

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8292/s2xz6.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s2xz6.jpg)

[Diego]

@Magic:
Thanks for the comments. Its nice to see someone with better fps than I get. The redish fog was done to match the sky color and I find it rather artistic -- and this is the desaturated version. It used to be more red than this. I know the stairs are a little futuristic, but I wanted to color code the various sections of the bunker and match it to the command map to make it easy for new players to find there way around.

@Ryan
I'll add you to my msn and try to answer your questions as soon as I can.

@Donpedro
I am using the dotproduct texture blending from Sock's website. So the blending between shaders matches the alpha channel of the top shader. The crisp edging is caused by the blending mode between them. I think someone posted on here once about a way to make that blend smoother, but I never got around to trying it out. You image looks like the kind of blend you get with an alpha map from Easy Gen.

@Eris
I take it you have not downloaded it yet. That's ok. It's a big file. It is more like Fueldump size. The map is about 3/4 the size of MLB temple. Before I split it into 2 maps, it was 1.5 times the size of MLB temple and growing ;) I'll try your server out. In my opinion, the map should be pretty balanced for up to a 24 player game. But I fully expect that on 64 man servers, you may have to tweak spawn times and weapons limitations to accommodate the larger group.

[ZeusBBA]

Great looking work Diego, another to add to my list for upcoming rotations. :wink:

[Diego]

Thanks. I'll check out your servers to see how it's going.

[CooperHawkes]

Holy sh*t...
It's. just. so. beautiful. :shock:
/me drools. :)

@Donpedro
I am using the dotproduct texture blending from Sock's website. So the blending between shaders matches the alpha channel of the top shader. The crisp edging is caused by the blending mode between them. I think someone posted on here once about a way to make that blend smoother, but I never got around to trying it out. You image looks like the kind of blend you get with an alpha map from Easy Gen.
Well, you might remove "alphaFunc GE128"... but IMO it looks more interesting the way it is (i.e. speckled instead of "washed-out" smooth blending).

[Darkfrost]

Just wondering, why do you set the winner to -1 at the start? :)



If you change the time limit it just stays at 0:00 when the match is over.

[Diego]

@Cooper
Thank you for you comments. I'm glad you like it. This was my first map for ET. But it was a long time in the making. I knew there was something with the alpha blend. That just wasn't high on my list to modify.

@Darkfrost
I'm glad you asked. A lot of people keep screwing around with the time limit so they can watch the flyby and nothing happens. Here is the reason why:

In order to give the allies the full 30 minutes to place the dynamite, I can't simply run the script for the axis victory before the round ends because the allies could always blow the radar with 1 second left on the clock.

To get around this issue, There is no winner set at the start of the map. I have a second func_timer in the map that fires every 60 seconds. In the script is a routine that counts the firings. When the value of the firings reaches 31 it triggers the axis victory scripting which contains the setwinner commands. It also disables the radar objective so the allies can not blow the radar after the timer has reached 0. The reason the value must be the game time + 1 is because the timer fires once immediately at the start of the map.

Here is the relevant script:

victory_manager
{
trigger axis_objective_counter //Counts axis objectives completed (i.e. # of times the timer fires this trigger)
{
accum 1 inc 1
// wm_announce "^3timer triggered"
trigger self axis_endgame

}

trigger axis_endgame // Check to see if all of allied objectives are complete
{
accum 1 abort_if_not_equal 31

setstate allied_destruct_radar_toi invisible // This removes the Radar Controls TOI so the dyno can't blow radar after timer runs out.
globalaccum 3 set 0 // This is used as a failsafe to interrupt allied victory script in case dyno blows while axis victory is running.
wait 1000

togglespeaker axis_victory_speaker

//================================================== ==================================
// *----------------------------------- vo ------------------------------------------*
wm_teamvoiceannounce 0 "praetoria_axis_airstrike_spotted"
wm_teamvoiceannounce 1 "praetoria_allies_airstrike_spotted"
// *---------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
//================================================== ==================================
wait 2000
trigger fighter_A move_plane_B1 // Start at 2 seconds
trigger flyby_tester randomfire
wait 2000
trigger fighter_B move_plane_B1 // Start at 5 seconds
wait 7900
trigger cargo_plane move_plane_B1 // Start at 12 seconds
wait 8000
wm_announce "^3The Allied Paratrooper force has been shot down by the Axis Anti-Air Defenses!" //Start at 20 seconds
wait 500
trigger fighter_C move_plane_B1 // Start at 20.5 seconds

wait 6000
wm_setwinner 0
wait 500
wm_endround
}
}


So if you are hosting a server and you want to extend the map time to 40 minutes, you need to change the conditon line to this:

accum 1 abort_if_not_equal 41


If you are just messing around and want to watch the show, You need to set that value to 2. This was the setting I used while I was testing it out.
Setting it to one will cause the script to start running immediately at the beginning of the game.

So anytime a server admin tries to shorten the game time through server commands, nothing will happen until the 30 minutes have passed so I don't recommend trying. If you try to extend the map time in the same manner, It would not probably not help becaues after 31 firings, the sequence will still play.

Of course, the Victory manager script also controls the Allied victory. But that sequence is based more on using wait statements to keep the map running before executing the setwinner and endmap commands.

[Darkfrost]

Ok :)

[Diego]

@Eris
Logged into your server this morning for a bit. Only about 20 players online though. You download redirect kept dropping me out of the game. I'll try again later tonight.

[Erls]

Yeah its an american server, so normally it doesnt pick up fully for another hour or two. Pretty much, from 10 AM to 6 or 7 PM Pacific time (which if your in Burbank your on) it is fairly full (50+).

Also, its not my server, I'm just a member of Bunker Gaming, which owns and operates it.

[Father]

]/forcecvar sv_cheats 1
devmode-> G_Script_GetEventIndex(), unknown event: trigger
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]/condump eh?.txt
Dumped console text to eh?.txt.

WARNING: invalid alphaFunc name 'GTO' in shader 'textures/praetoria/props/fan_blade'
WARNING: invalid alphaFunc name 'GTO' in shader 'textures/praetoria/props/engine_blades'
WARNING: invalid alphaFunc name 'GTO' in shader 'textures/praetoria/props/engine_blades'

BTW: great map.. :idea:

[Diego]

Not sure what those trigger errors are unless they are related to the firing of the end script trigger that happens every 60 seconds.

The shader thing I am aware of. GTO was a valid value in the q3map shader manual. Not sure why it gives that error, but my shaders look correct so I never bothered to get rid of the error.

[alex82]

chech your pm pls :twisted:

[Diego]

Alex,

I have decided to move your private request to the public forums because to do not want there to be misunderstanding in what I am about to say regarding the release of a modified version my map:

You absolutely do NOT have my permission to alter my map. You do NOT have my permission to release that "Light Edition" version that you created on ANY server. The quality of the map reflects on me as the mapper and the hack job that you have given to my map shows anything but respect for my work.

Let's compare shall we? Guess which one is yours.

http://webpages.charter.net/dt3d/Maps/praetoria_one/Preview/praetoria_red.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/dt3d/Maps/praetoria_one/Preview/praetoria_black.jpg


I fully expected that any map when placed on a large server may need spawn times and game time limit adjusments made to re-balance the game play so the map is still fun for all and I do not mind any kind of changes like this to occur as long as it is specific to your server. However lets look at the other changes:

Boathouse MG: Removed.
Second Tank Barrier: Removed.
Allied and Axis victory scripting and sound: Removed.
Textures: Compressed into oblivion.
Fog: While I know many people do not agree with my color of choice, let me just say that I have never seen an orange sun cast blue light in the atmosphere. The Bright Sky/Black Ground look that you have given my map simply looks like crap. Not to mention the distance is so wide now that you can see the geometry culling.


How can you praise my work with one hand, and butcher it with another? I spent 2 1/2 years making this map and that includes 8 months of play testing. It took me 4 weeks alone to model the airplanes and script the victory sequences and you deleted them in 4 seconds. Of course they are not a necessary part of the map. But they make the experience of winning or losing extra special.

There are a lot of things I did in this map that were not necessary. Was it necessary to build the power generator out of more than a box? Was it necessary to use a chain reaction of electrical effects to destroy the radar instead of a simple dynamite explosion? Was it necessary to build every brush of terrain by hand instead of using Easygen? Was it necessary to spend months balancing the gameplay at the second tank barrier when I could have simply deleted it like you did? Or was it necessary to use high-res textures instead of the ultra-compressed things you replaced in my map? These are the things I spent months creating. Everything that is in this map is there for a reason. You've been playing it for 3 or 4 days and you start chopping out anything you don't like?

Did it occur to you that you can't simply rename a pk3 file to create an alternate version of a map? There are a many files that depend on a unique map name in order to work properly without conflicts with others. And while you have some knowlege of scripting since it was so easy for you to delete stuff out of mine, you obviously have no idea what must be done when creating a map so that you will not have these types of problems.

I am sorry if you have clients who are not willing to wait for the download. However, I know that there are a few maps out there that are nearly as large as mine and they still see regular play on many servers. A person's willingness to wait for the a map to download is not only dependent on the map size, but on the transfer rate from the server. Personlly, If one of my favorite servers puts a new map or mod on their server that is very large, I will wait for it to download because that server is the place I want to be. But some servers have such a slow transfer speed that there is not a file small enough worth waiting for the download.


I'm sorry I have to be so hard on you. I know that you thought you were doing me a favor and I believe that your intentions were good. But If you really wanted to help me make this map popular, you could try promoting the original version of the map instead, and perhaps encourage you clients to take the time to download the map before they join your server.


When I created this map, I knew the file size was going to be a problem for some people. It is my hope that the ones who download it will decide that it was worth the wait. Maybe they will not think so and my map will quickly fade into oblivion. In fact, it is just as likely that the frame rate issues that people with older computers have with the open layout will cause it to fade even quicker than the file size. But I deliberately chose to make the layout in this manner just as I chose to use the large textures so I accept the responsibility for that.
The "Light" version of Praetoria that you have created is not something that I would ever want to release to the public. I hope that you will respect my wishes and remove it from your server. Should you decide to keep the original Praetoria in your rotation, you have my thanks for that. And I hope you and your clients continue to enjoy it.

While I do not approve of any of your script deletions, I will let you judge the gameplay that works best on YOUR server as long as you meet these two conditions:

1. Your scripting modifcations must be SERVER SIDE ONLY to prevent your clients from downloading a modified .script or .pk3 file.
2. In your edited version of the script, I want you to specify that you made this modified version and that it is specific to your server only so that clients who may not like your changes are aware of them.


Perhaps you and many others think that I am just being an ass. But this project was a very long time in the making and it is a slap in the face to have someone who has less than a week of experience with the map make "Improvements" without consulting me first.

[alex82]

JAJ DIEAGO, i think u really misunderstand me :oops:

I never say this is my map! I only send to you an example pk3 file which was created reconverting files and was only less then 18 MB +some script modifiction.

And ask u possible use this smaller map as "light edition" in an server and i say if u want u can make public this file to help this great map popular, thats all. And i never say the map is my work and dont wrote also in the email.

I respect your work thats why i ask u so u dont need write any overeacted post.

[==Troy==]

In my past experience of map making for different games at least 50% of the maps were modified without my permission, and I couldnt do anything about it.. :roll: ... Especially those games, that didnt need a decompilation of the map, and had an editor avialable with the initial install of the game.

[Diego]

Alex,

I understand what you are saying. I know you never said it was your map. The problem is that the changes that you have made to it make the map look bad. And as a result, make me look bad as a mapper.

Everyone has their own opinion about what makes a map look good. But one of the rights as the map maker is that I get to be the one to determine what looks good and what doesn't.... at least until some one comes up with some kind of "snow" mod for it. :roll: But you have to understand that visual modifications like the "summer" mod for Fueldump are not removing the original textures. They are simply loaded in place of the original ones which still exist in the .pk3 files. As far as the fog is concerned, I just think it makes the map look horrible and I would never release a map looking like that.

But the main issue here is the modifications that you have done to the script. These changes are essentially creating a second version of the map. But you can not have 2 versions of the same map with the same map name in the same /etmain folder. They will have conflicts. To understand what I mean, put the original Praetoria, and your modified Praetoria_LE in the same /etmain folder. Try to load the original one. You will not be able to because only 1 map will show up in the list and when you load it, it will always be your modified version.

I know that you have played modifcations of other maps like Fueldump that have had ETpro mapscripts made for them. These scripts reside in different directories from the original script. They can be used to fix bugs, exploits, or change the gameplay of the map without damaging the original script file. If you wish to make changes to my script for your server, please use an ETpro mapscript to do it. That way, your clients will still download the original version of the map but they will be able to play your modified version on your server.


If people continue to hear good things about a map, they will eventually take the time to download it. You only have to do it once. If they like it, they will not care how big it is. But there will always be someone who does not like the map for one reason or another. I am sure there are many people who have tried praetoria and don't like it. But Making the filesize smaller will not make these people like the map any more than they did before.

I am glad that you like my map and I hope that you will continue to host it on your server. Thank you for letting me know about the changes that you made. If you absolutely must use these script modifications on your server, please use an ETpro mapscript so that ther are no conflicts with my original. I'm sorry that I had to be an ass about it. I know that you want to help me make it more popular. But removing the most unique features from a map is not the right way to do it. It takes more than a small file size to make the map popular.

[CooperHawkes]

The shader thing I am aware of. GTO was a valid value in the q3map shader manual. Not sure why it gives that error, but my shaders look correct so I never bothered to get rid of the error.

it should read GT0, instead of GTO...
(it's "Greater Than Zero", not "Greater Than 'O'" ;-) )

alphaFunc GT0 ---> don't draw the portions of the texture that have an alpha value of zero (which is completely transparent), i.e. draw everything where the alpha value is greater than zero.
This alphaFunc is usually taken for masking operations, e.g. to draw fences. However, IMO you get better results with GT128 and the right blending function in such cases (blendFunc GL_ONE GL_ZERO), because you get some sort of "super fine resolution" by bilinear texture interpolation... or in other words: sloped edges in the texture do look much better than with GT0 (less aliasing). (BTW: don't forget to disable mipmapping with fence-like structures or you will get pretty strange visual results when seen from far away).
Another application of alphaFunc GT0 is to reduce overdraw if large parts of your texture are transparent.
Well, I guess I better stop talking now, before my babbling gets too confusing. ;-)

[Ryan]

I think that Diego's map is certainly worth the downloading time.

And what I like most about the map is the super realistic sky and lights :D

I LOVE THAT ORANGE EFFECT!!!

And the light version deleted the plane scripting????? :x

OMG, Thats the best winning expierence you can get after playing 30 min!
A real show for your team at the end! It totally ROCKS.
It really's makes you want to play the map again :D
Can't get enough of the planes!
(Diego, maybe you can place something in the script, a link to your website, with the full explanation of the campaign you're making?)

[broloi]

I fully understand Diego on this.

If he used as much time as he says on the deleted features, they should still be there.

No need to make a lighter version, people just needs patient with the download of this GREAT map.

[Diego]

it should read GT0, instead of GTO...
(it's "Greater Than Zero", not "Greater Than 'O'" ;-) )


OMG!

I have seen that error for months and I never realized I was using an "O" and not a "0". :oops:

Thanks for that detailed explanation about the alpha blending. Those things always confuse me. It's a miracle I was ever able to get any of my shaders to work. I'll have to fix these shaders so that they are drawn properly in the next map. If I accumulate enough of these little changes, I'll release a new version of this one.

What's more fun than downloading a large map file?

Downloading it twice. :lol:

Ryan was also good enough to show me a small exploit in the map. Apparently, it IS possible to sneak into the bunker by squeezing through the South Defenses MG nest opening. I tried this several times unsuccessfully so I did not think it was possible.

However, with all of the trickjumpers, player stackers, and Mods allowing Double jumps and vertical player push's. I knew that someone would find a way inside the bunker before they were supposed too no matter what precautions I took.

So, If anybody thinks this exploit will allow the allies to win the map early by cheating. In encourage you to try it. :twisted:

[Erls]

Alright, here goes.

Diego, We played through your map a number of times so far on Bunker2, a 40+4 NQ server based in Europe. For me, I hate slithly worse FPS than normal (20-30), but I also have an old, crappy laptop. Normally I'm happy if I'm at 40, so getting 20-30 on a EU server (I'm in Phoenix) wasn't to bad. The map didn't cause any major lag problems, in fact it runs smoother than a lot of maps I've played. It looks nice from what I can tell (I have minimal graphics enabled to help my FPS), but from what people were saying it looks amazing.

I was slightly confused at first on where to go/what to do, but after a half match or so I figured it out. Not bad, overall, about average in terms of dificulty in figuring out where/how to do the objective I would say.

The download, while large, is like you say a one time only thing, and the people who play on bunker servers will download whatever maps are put up there, as they expect the campaign creators to choose good maps, so no worries about that. besides, it goes pretty fast with 500+ a sec.

Anyway, now for the big issue. Your map caused the Max_Gamestate_Chars Exceeded error. This error, to date of our knowledge, is found in: Venice, Ruins, MLB Daybreak, MLB Egypt, Resurrection, and now Praetorian: Bunker Hill. From what we (Bunker Gaming, mainly Jecoliah), have been able to figure out, this issue comes from the length and amount of info being sent to each client. For exmple, Jecoliah has almost fixed Venice, but he ahs had to remove/replace many constructables, CP's, corunnas, etc... With this error, the map cannot be run on Bunker1, Bunker2, Bunker5, Bunker10, Bunker64, and possible Bunker4 as well, as the error will crash the server with enough people playing. If you want to add me on msn (ohlow at hotmail dot com), I have a couple ideas if your interested if working on this. If not, no worries. You've made a great map, and I would love to see it on all Bunker servers.

[alex82]

I play on >B< server only once this morning with this map, and we get this error after the map end, when the end sequence started (the airstrike)

[Diego]

Alex,
How many players did you have in the game when it crashed?

Eris,
I've added you. I'll be at work for quite a while today. I'm pulling a lot of overtime right now.

[alex82]

30-40 active players was there, dont know exactly how many plays because many was spectator (because of the new map).

Everything work fine it was a hard fight at the last minutes the allies destroyed the radar i saw the first or second aeroplane and bumm, the crash. NQ mod have always this chars error things on some map... :(

[Erls]

30-40 active players was there, dont know exactly how many plays because many was spectator (because of the new map).

Everything work fine it was a hard fight at the last minutes the allies destroyed the radar i saw the first or second aeroplane and bumm, the crash. NQ mod have always this chars error things on some map... :(

Diego, this error that Alex is talking about is the same one I mentioned. When the server crashed, the teams were 15v16, with 7 people spectator (3 were downloading at that time). I should be around just all day till late tonight or so as well, and no worries, I got loads of time right now as well, so whenever is good for you.

Also, Alex, this error has nothing to do with NQ. The error is directly related (from what we've found) to the length and amount of strings sent to the clients. *I might not be 100% correct word wise, as I'm not a 'expert' in this area*. The error generally takes place on maps with moving vehicles (Tank, Boat, Truck), lots of constructables, as well as many things to destroy.

[dutchman]

:o This map is awesome !
I tested it a few times and i love it.

it would be nice to see that part two is a map where the axis must defend, and in the third again the allies final win :roll:
just my thought :|

Thank you :)

[Diego]

Thanks Dutchman.

The 2nd part will continue the allied assault from the main bunker to an axis research complex where they need to steal their main objective. I have a lot of the construction done on it, but I have not had time to really get the objectives working in it. Part 3 is only at the idea stage but will tie in directly with the first 2.

[Ryan]

I could supply some ideas :D :P

[dutchman]

Thanks Dutchman.

The 2nd part will continue the allied assault from the main bunker to an axis research complex where they need to steal their main objective. I have a lot of the construction done on it, but I have not had time to really get the objectives working in it. Part 3 is only at the idea stage but will tie in directly with the first 2.

Hi :)

I just finished cleaning up the campaigns and put yours in it.
We have/had 26 MB maps on it and the regular players accepted it. Bridges for instance...
I hope they don't come cry on my *ss cause of the size :P

ok, looking forward to the next release :roll:

[alex82]

there is not many map where axis team is the attacker. So one idea:

2. mission:
Axis try to make the controll again over the main bunker (from misison one where radar is.) Allies must stop it, defend the bunker.

(lol interacitve play: if axis win back to mission 1 if not continuo to mission 3)

3 mission:
The 2nd part will continue the allied assault from the main bunker to an axis research complex where they need to steal their main objective.
this will be the 3rd instead of 2th

[Diego]

there is not many map where axis team is the attacker. So one idea:

2. mission:
Axis try to make the controll again over the main bunker (from misison one where radar is.) Allies must stop it, defend the bunker.

(lol interacitve play: if axis win back to mission 1 if not continuo to mission 3)

3 mission:
The 2nd part will continue the allied assault from the main bunker to an axis research complex where they need to steal their main objective.
this will be the 3rd instead of 2th

I know a lot of people want to see more axis attack maps. But I don't know anyone that would want to replay the same map again with modified objectives. It is far easier to run a stopwatch server so everyone gets a chance to play the map from both sides.

The Mission one and Mission two were originally designed to be one map. Splitting that one into two maps was the only way to get a decent compile and keep my objectives. So this map will definitely stay as mission two.

However, for mission three, I am considering making that one either a dual objective map, or more likely a map that has allied attacking for the first half, and axis attacking for the second half. I can't remember the name of the map that does that. But the axis must build and escort a V2 rocket on a train. So I might make mission 3 like that. Nothing is set yet though.

[broloi]

there is not many map where axis team is the attacker.

ET wasnt designed for Axis attack maps.. Just listen to the voice announcements.. theres a lot of the allies announcements thats the attacking type, while few of the axis are, the axis are defending announcements..

And whats the problem, just change team whenever you want to attack or defend.. it cant be that hard, can it..

[alex82]

V2 factory is the map name.

However if axis can attack on the 3rd mission and the map will look awsome like 1 (and i think 2 also because of the splitting) the maps will rocks!

Maybe Et was not designed for axis map, but ppl like them :).

Keep up the good work for the ET community!

[Diego]

I've tried to keep all of my voice commands for objectives as something that can be edited together using the existing voices. Many of the objectives in Mission One are using edited voice commands.

Of course, I do get a really big laugh out of the homemade voice commands in the MLB maps. But for now, I want to avoid having to record myelf giving orders. I think I would just sound lame.

For mission three, I won't make a dual objective map just to make one. If it works well with the overall scenario of the three missions, then I will find a way to incorporate it in. If not, then I will have to stick to the allied attack.

[Ryan]

Maybe in the third map you can play as the paratroopers that came thru in map 1?

Thats a nice plot :)
So you'll start back in time, same time as original map 1 begins but now you are a diff soldier. a Airborne instead of ground troop.

Would be fun if you can hear over the radio how the groundtroops are doing.
If map 1 is lost, then map 3 will be short ;)
Imagine you flying in the plane, knowing you lost the previous map, and you can be shot down any moment.
So if map 1 is lost, in map 3 you'll get shot down :)

If map 1 is won by the allies, you can fly through and play the full map 3.

And maybe it could be cooperated with the mod Wolfenstein: The Frontline, were parachutist are actually possible.

Ask me for a picture :)

Just an Idea if you dont know what to do with map 3

[broloi]

Well, im pretty sure Diego got enough to do with the 2nd map..

If its gonna take as long as the 1st and is gonna be as good as the 1st, so just slow down.
I'm pretty sure he's gonna tell you his thoughts about the 3rd when the 2nd is released..

Anyway, awsome map..

[c0m4r]

looks great, but it's next too big map.

[TNR360]

looks great, but it's next too big map.
the only map that is TOO BIG is that ugly castle thingy

[Diego]

looks great, but it's next too big map.
the only map that is TOO BIG is that ugly castle thingy

Some people just prefer smaller maps. Praetoria is certainly bigger than Fueldump, but it is smaller than MLB Temple by about 1/4 - 1/3. But he may also just mean the filesize. At 34.5 MB, this is one of the largest maps. But there are others that are bigger.

What map is the ugly castle thingy? The only big castle map that I can think of is Resurrection. And I happen to like that one.

[TNR360]

looks great, but it's next too big map.
the only map that is TOO BIG is that ugly castle thingy

Some people just prefer smaller maps. Praetoria is certainly bigger than Fueldump, but it is smaller than MLB Temple by about 1/4 - 1/3. But he may also just mean the filesize. At 34.5 MB, this is one of the largest maps. But there are others that are bigger.

What map is the ugly castle thingy? The only big castle map that I can think of is Resurrection. And I happen to like that one.

I think its minas truth (but theres a note that the GFX arent final)

it does not look good at all (but a very nice attept at the castle design

[broloi]

Minas Truth is only alfa..

[c0m4r]

TNR360 more enemy territory servers offer us only standard or "clanbase-recomened" maps, 70% ppls want play only these maps, and when any admins try introduce to new maps, which have 40mb it's realy difficult order ppls will download it... But if you try introduce to new maps, which have a few (like 4-5) mb, that's easily. For example new dFx's map "base", only need a few days, and now my server ppls willingly will download base, and play there.

Let's create maps for all peoples, not for elite.

sry for my n00b english, however i hope, that you understand this thing.

[Flippy]

Where do you get your statistics..? How do you know that 70% of the people who play ET only want to play 4-5 MB maps..?
That's plain bullshit imo...

Maybe if you're on dialup or something, then i can imagine you don't want to wait for 40 MB to download...
But alot of people (espcially online gamers) have alot faster internet these days, and so do the servers. It will not take long at all to download the map for many people. And for those that do, well bad luck for them ^^

[Diego]

In my opinion, there are already plenty of maps that are around 4-5 MB in size. The reason they are so small is because they stick to using the stock ET shaders and textures. There is nothing wrong with that, but frankly, my eyes get tired of seeing the same look in every map.

Praetoria is really my first map for ET, but I knew when I started it that I did not want it to look like every other ET map and that requires a lot of new textures. I agree that many people probably prefer the smaller filesize of recognizable ET textures versus something new. Many people also prefer short 15 minute "competition" style maps versus larger, longer, multiple objective maps. However, I am not one of them. I like maps that break the norm, that have innovative objectives, and a unique look or style to them that set them apart.

I'm sure every mapper hopes to release his map to the public and have it become a widely accepted "must have" map on every server. But not every map will be as sucessful as "Raw Castle","Venice", "MLB_Temple", or "Supply Depot". But just because a map has a small or large filesize is not a valid measurement of a map's quality. It really is simply a matter of personal preference.

So, my basic philosophy as a mapper is to make the kind of map that I myself would like to play on. If I can do that sucessfully, then the long days, weeks, months, or even years needed to make the map will still be worthwhile. If other people enjoy my map as much as I do then that is also really great. If not, then at least I know I did not spend many months of work making a map that I don't like for someone else to play only to find out they really don't like it either. That IS a waste.

[TNR360]

In my opinion, there are already plenty of maps that are around 4-5 MB in size. The reason they are so small is because they stick to using the stock ET shaders and textures. There is nothing wrong with that, but frankly, my eyes get tired of seeing the same look in every map.

Praetoria is really my first map for ET, but I knew when I started it that I did not want it to look like every other ET map and that requires a lot of new textures. I agree that many people probably prefer the smaller filesize of recognizable ET textures versus something new. Many people also prefer short 15 minute "competition" style maps versus larger, longer, multiple objective maps. However, I am not one of them. I like maps that break the norm, that have innovative objectives, and a unique look or style to them that set them apart.

I'm sure every mapper hopes to release his map to the public and have it become a widely accepted "must have" map on every server. But not every map will be as sucessful as "Raw Castle","Venice", "MLB_Temple", or "Supply Depot". But just because a map has a small or large filesize is not a valid measurement of a map's quality. It really is simply a matter of personal preference.

So, my basic philosophy as a mapper is to make the kind of map that I myself would like to play on. If I can do that sucessfully, then the long days, weeks, months, or even years needed to make the map will still be worthwhile. If other people enjoy my map as much as I do then that is also really great. If not, then at least I know I did not spend many months of work making a map that I don't like for someone else to play only to find out they really don't like it either. That IS a waste.

VERY VERY well said

[dutchman]

We have a large campaign on our server (61 Delicious CustomMaps / Standards) and the Map fits perfectly in it.
Its would be even worth it if it had double the MB size. Its just a one-time download , who cares ;)

I put it right after the Vesuvius map so the players have to download a little some to play :D But it is 100% worth it.

Btw. Diego you mentioned bigger maps. Can you tell me wich one (I did not test Exhumed though.(YET, but i will look into it tonight). :oops:

[Erls]

TNR360 more enemy territory servers offer us only standard or "clanbase-recomened" maps, 70% ppls want play only these maps, and when any admins try introduce to new maps, which have 40mb it's realy difficult order ppls will download it... But if you try introduce to new maps, which have a few (like 4-5) mb, that's easily. For example new dFx's map "base", only need a few days, and now my server ppls willingly will download base, and play there.

Let's create maps for all peoples, not for elite.

sry for my n00b english, however i hope, that you understand this thing.

I'm sorry, but that is just bullshit. Perhaps within the ETPro community that is true, but in the ETPub and NQ communitites most people could care less if a map is 4 mb or 24 mb. As long as it looks nice and is fun to play your basic pub or nq player will enjoy it. Just look at the Bunker servers for examples. All of our servers are full for half the day (40 slots up to 64 slots), and we run 30 map (almost all custom maps) campaigns. In fact, almost every month we are adding 4 or 5 new maps to the campaigns, and we have never had people complain about a map size. They go to the bathroom, go get some food, or go grab a beer while download a map, and when they come back its done and they are playing again.

"Let's create maps for all peoples, not for elite."
This same arguement was used when ET first came out about FPS. People hated Transmitter because they couldnt play it with there old school, pre-2000 computers and graphic cards. In my mind, every mapper has the right to make maps how they want to make them. Big, small, great detail, shoddy detail, it is there call. if you want it done a certain way, you can put in the time and effort to make a map. Until you do that, don't complain.

[c0m4r]

Diego I know, that you want create maps, that yourself would like to play on, and it's positively, 'cause more servers host "small" maps, like braundorf_b4, supply, frostbite, and these maps are preferably playable. It's so hard even to introduce new maps, which have more than 10mb (whatever), and which are bigger. Youre all have right, but easly to acceptance for more ppls are smaller. And sorry, now i know, that my arguments courageous (daring, i don't know..), hasty.

[broloi]

It's so hard even to introduce new maps, which have more than 10mb (whatever), and which are bigger.

That depents on download speed and if people have the paitent to download it...

Some servers have regulares, who would do anything for the server, even download a 32mb big map..

[Erls]

Diego I know, that you want create maps, that yourself would like to play on, and it's positively, 'cause more servers host "small" maps, like braundorf_b4, supply, frostbite, and these maps are preferably playable. It's so hard even to introduce new maps, which have more than 10mb (whatever), and which are bigger. Youre all have right, but easly to acceptance for more ppls are smaller. And sorry, now i know, that my arguments courageous (daring, i don't know..), hasty.

Dude, on the servers I play on it takes all of 5 seconds to download a 4 mb map. Diego's map took me, I believe, close to 60, 65 seconds total to download. I was in the game before before the end of warmup. Clearly, you are playing on ETPro style servers. The maps you are naming are staples of the ETPro community: Smaller, competition maps geared towards 3v3 or 6v6. The maps we play on are server are geared towards 12v12, 20v20, 30v30. In fact, when we last tried to run supplydepot2 everyone complained because it was two small. The people who play on the servers I frequent (Bunker Servers), could care less about how big a map is. If we put it on one of our servers, our regulars expect it to be a well made enjoyable map. They are more than willing to wait one or two minutes to download a larger map, as they all do so and never complain. In fact, we normally get complaints because our maps are to small, to old, etc... I can also tell that the servers you play on either have horrible downloads or you have a horrible internet connection.

So, please remember this: Your style of play, your servers, attracts one type of player, the ETPro competitive player. My style, Diego's style, etc... attracts another type of player. The player who doesn't care about map size, file size, etc..., as they play ET to have fun for an hour or two a day, and could care less about map size. Furthermore, it is not hard at all to introduce new maps. Maybe on your server it is, but if thats the case then no one liked your server that much to begin with. if someone really likes a server, they will wait an extra minute or two to download a map.

Finally, your arguement is neither courageous or daring. It is based upon shallow thinking, with you thinking that everything should be designed for you and how you want it. As I said before: If you want a small, 4 or 5 mb map, make one yourself. Until you have made a map yourself, don't tell competent, experienced mappers how to do something.

[c0m4r]

Ok Erls i understand it now,
and probably now i'll change mod on my server to another than etpro ;-)

[Diego]

We have a large campaign on our server (61 Delicious CustomMaps / Standards) and the Map fits perfectly in it.
Its would be even worth it if it had double the MB size. Its just a one-time download , who cares ;)

Btw. Diego you mentioned bigger maps. Can you tell me wich one (I did not test Exhumed though.(YET, but i will look into it tonight). :oops:

Exumed is one of them. However, since it does not run with the default hunkmegs I have not loaded it yet to look at. I think Marketgarden also used to be a 40 mb download. But I think someone has modified it to reduce that down a bit. I think _Bridges_ was more along the lines of 24mb but I'm not sure. I'll have to check out my collection when I get home. In fact I seem to recall someone long ago suggesting that we never make a map larger than 12-15 Mb because of the download time. But these days that argument seems a bit obsolete.

By the way, where is your server. I'd like to stop by sometime. A few servers I've played it on, I did not hear the airplane flyover sound effects when I was on the axis team. But other players did. I'm trying to find out if that is a server glitch, a map glitch, or related to how much lag I had on them.

[Ryan]

I just happen to like HUGE maps :lol:
But it also depends on how good it looks.

And come on, this is Diego's FIRST map for ET.

Thats worth a applause man.
I think its one of the best maps out there, and that for a first attempt!
OMG :oops:

[[]v[]]

A really well made map Diego. I love all the detail like the individual buildings and rooms,
broken glass, the boat, textures and the atmosphere is good to.
I look forward to more of your maps. :notworthy:

[Diego]

Thanks, []v[]

You are probably the first person who likes the atmosphere. Most people don't like the rusty fog color. The boat is a retextured version from Chavo_One's Venice map. But the planes were mine. But the detail and open layout come with a price in performance and a lot of older machines choke on it.

I was toying with the idea of making an alternate version that would the divide the town and the bunker into separate areas to try to boost frame rate. But after some extensive testing, I realized that I would have to drastically redesign most of the map and that would then require even more testing to make sure the new design had a balanced gameplay. It just wasn't worth the amount of time I would have to invest in it. By the time I got something like that finished, everyone would have probably upgraded their computer by then. :/

There are a handfull of small glitches in Mission One that have been brought to my attention that I may address in a future release. But somebody emailed me about allies using Double Jump on Jaymod servers to bypass all of the objectives to get into the main bunker. I haven't had any luck running modded server at home to test this. I'm sure they can get inside, I'm just not sure how they are getting past the "kill" trigger I've placed inside the radar room that I use to kill allies who enter it before the tank blows the south defenses. So if anyone else reads this, try it out and let me know if you are able to get inside the radar room without hacking the script to disable the kill trigger.

In the meantime, I've been trying to get more done on Mission Two, but I've been working 6 days a week most of the summer so I haven't had enough free time to make much progress.

[broloi]

Found a bug... If you go to the room over the Radar Controls and try to go over to the windows and go up to one of them, as close you can get, then you can see thru the wall behind.

I'll get a SS as soon as possible.

[aaa3]

very beautiful looking map :)

[ailmanki]

good news and bad ones,

love the map, lovet he atmosphere, mostly I loved the water..
swimming their in and looking out of it.. amazing !

well I had also this max gamechars error, one thing which I noticed is,
that the string sent to the client, consists of map and mod related things..
like weapons, actually everything what is an entity.

I allready mentioned this somewhere in the forum, I guess that making the entitiy names short like 'a1', 'a2'. instead of 'command_post', I think that would help. I can help set up a testserver, to test the map for max gamechars. (Maybe I can even host it).

Well beside maxgamechars, I had a error with the command map, it seems it misses a layer z, well the command map is always displayed, but in some heights - there is nothing displayed on it. I guess that is due to another pk3.. but before hunting that one down, I wanted to ask here.. if its a bug or just the mix of pk3s?

[Der'saidin]

Epic map.
Awesome work with the textures/vis/lighting/everything.

[Diego]

Thanks for the comments guys. I really wanted to push the details of this map a lot. That water shader was such a bitch to get right. ;)


Well beside maxgamechars, I had a error with the command map, it seems it misses a layer z, well the command map is always displayed, but in some heights - there is nothing displayed on it. I guess that is due to another pk3.. but before hunting that one down, I wanted to ask here.. if its a bug or just the mix of pk3s?

I have been compiling a list of problems both large and small. I know about the gamestate error with larger servers. How large was the server when it crashed for you? I think about 20 players is the most I was ever able to test it with.

Regarding the command map, what you are seeing is not an error - well, not completely. During testing, some players were getting a little confused inside the main bunker. So in addition to putting textures inside the bunker displaying the map layout, I made a dual-layer command map. The 2nd layer is controlled by your height. So when you are on the top floor of the bunker, the command map displays the correct rooms and hallways for that floor.

The glitch is that the command map will not display the objectives because they are not in that 2nd layer. That is a limitation of ET and I can't do anything about that. But if you will also notice, The command map has icons for the objectives inside the bunker and each access is color coded. So that way you always know which way you need to go even when you are on the top floor. I did get the spawnpoints to be selectable from the limbo menu by lowering the axis spawnpoint entity to the ground floor while keeping the spawn boxes on the top floor.

Byzantine uses a dual-layer command map as well. That was my guide for setting up my own. It wasn't essential, plenty of command maps don't have details inside buildings. But I think that anything that I can add to eliminate confusing for new players is worth the time.

So Anyway, any comments or bugs, big or small, feel free to post here.
I'm hoping to get back to mapping after my work schedule lightens up in the fall. With such a large file to download, any new release of the map needs to really be worthwhile.

[wezelkrozum]

I think i know something for the problem with the commandmap markers. place at every floor 1,2 en 3e floor a misc_commandmap_marker from a objective?

[Miki]

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Omg, you make my map look stuped, even i have only seen screens and read comment, altough 35 mb is alot... :) why is it so big? big grounds or??

question, did you caulk it? (i gues you did :p) but if you didnt, would it make your map alot smaller ;). (but who am i to say that...)

BTW : your site is realy nice :wink:

[TALON193]

any sign of mission 2 ?? i'm really looking forward to trying the 2nd one :)

[Diego]

Well, I have the construction about 95% complete. I really need to start the scripting for my objectives. Once we start testing the map, I expect I will need to make some significant design changes to balance the gameplay. While making mission one, I went through many revisions with the command posts and the cp bunker design as well as the cave objective (I used to have poison gas in there ;)

But It will probably be sometime in September before I have a chance to really sit down and crank out first pass on the objectives.

[broloi]

Found a bug... If you go to the room over the Radar Controls and try to go over to the windows and go up to one of them, as close you can get, then you can see thru the wall behind.

Hmm... I know its a bad description :oops: .. I'll get a ss today..

<EDIT>http://i11.tinypic.com/4voblms.jpg</EDIT>[/img]

[Diego]

That's wierd. Some kind of vis bug. I think that is also the window that has mixed up surface properties on it. They are supposed to be solid, but I remember one of those windows will allow you to shoot through it.

My guess is that brush is probably set up as structural instead of detail. Thanks for the screenshot. I'll add that to the list.