ET - Quake Wars - Philosophy - Developer to Answer Please

[Isabel Lucas]

Hi,

I'm one of many thousands of disillusioned loyal Battlefield 2 players who are awaiting this game with the possibility of defecting from EA to ID software, that includes some of the top CAL league teams, one of which I am a member.

As someone new to the Quake / Enemy Territory series I wonder if one of the developers could please give us some more information as to the philosophy behind the game play in this title.

The main reason so many players are looking to leave the Battlefield series is because of changes EA made to the Battlefield series's gameplay away from arcade play to low skill / low accuracy children friendly play.

Specifically what many of us didn't like in BF2 was:

1. Nerfed weapons - highly inaccurate with large cones of fire making it more computer generated luck than skill in the killing of opponents

2. Delays introduced by patches on certain gameplay actions such a proning and the firing of certain weapons

3. Nerfing of jumping and shooting

4. Nerfing of shooting and moving

5. A general dumbing down of everything in BF2 to suit the lowest possible denominator, the whiners, who complained and demanded the removal of everything in the game that better'ed them.

What many of us in the Battlefield community are interested in hearing therefore is ID / Splash's philosophy for gameplay in ETQW.

I understand that traditionally, ET and QW's have allowed jumping and shooting / movement based arcade style play and hasen't suffered from all of the nerfs thats driven many people away from BF2.

Could you please confirm this / the style of play we could expect by moving over to ETQW and also some comments on the accuracy / skill level of the gameplay. I will be passing your comments back to several top CAL teams and parts of the disillusioned Battlefield community in general.

Thanks,

Al.

[kamikazee]

Please use the search function... Lots of ex-BF2 players have posed this questions before. ;)

[Senethro]

Hi Al, I'm not a developer but I've played a fair bit of ET. I never played BF2 but some of my friends did and I read the patchnotes because I'm interested in game design. I couldn't believe the bullshit that EA/Dice pulled on you guys. I also apologise for my friends because they're the kind of people who wanted the low skill play changes to happen :/

Have you seen the gameplay vids of the ET:QW alpha build from E3? The walkspeed is so fast that it looks really weird beside the realistic graphics because you expect things that look like people to move like people. There looks like the same amount of "cone of fire" as in W:ET, that is, barely any cone at all and only from very, very long firing. Didn't see anyone trickjumping about but the devs have apparently said its in, meaning the players will be very mobile.

Theres also going to be no stat-unlockables meaning less people doing idiot stuff for promotions.

Whats the word on BF2142? I was wanting to get into ET:QW competitively and didn't want EA swooping in and stealing half of the market for Sci-fi FPS.

[Nail]

Download, install and play ET while you wait for ET:QW, that will give you the best idea about gameplay and as a bonus you'll have an excellent game to play that already blows away BF2

[nUllSkillZ]

While waiting for an answer from the developers you could try to get an impression by reading some impressions from the E3 presentation.
There are also some gameplay movies:
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars E3 2006 Media (http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=14538)


Oops that are only the movies.
You should / could try to search the forusm for E3.

[Redh3lix]

Being a BF2 player and previously a long term ET player, I sympathise with your thirst for knowledge regarding this title.

I'm relying on the fact it's a Splash Damage title m8, Imo, it will be superb and blow BF2 (and BF2142) apart. I doubt very much they'll bow to the pressure of the players who simply can't aim/drive/fly etc and nerf it.

[jjpron]

Yes, why not play ET for a while?
Have you tried playing it, if so, what did you/did not like about it?

[carnage]

if the game is anyhting like ET (and im 99.9999% sure it is) then there is basical no nerfing. the only limiting factor is your own skill as a player which is what makes ET such a great game. i cant w8 to get my hands on vehicles with ID engine behind them. we could see some insane trickjumping

[Rhoades]

In a video, Wedgewood said they are not fans of nerfing and noobifying a game. So I hope that helps somewhat.

[nUllSkillZ]

Silly me I totally have forgotten the unofficial FAQ by RosOne:
Enemy Territory: Quake Wars FAQ (http://www.theredstuff.com/faq/enemy_territory_quake_wars)
Some info's from some previews as far as I remember.
May be some of your questions will be answered there (shame on me I haven't had a closer look).

[Isabel Lucas]

Ok thx for the replies guys.

Its nice to know there are still gamers out there who appreciate skill in a game.

1942 was a great game but unfortunately the titles really went down from there until we reached BF2 which was nerfed accuracy wise at the start, but overall not a bad game. Unfortunately, gameplay changes then turned it into something completely different to the demo and to what I personally bought into.

Last time I buy an EA title.

I'll get a copy of ET and give it a go, more or less had enough of BF2 anyway.

Thx once again,

Al.

[SniperSteve]

Al, ET is free!

I feel your pain, and as an X-BF2 player I understand where you are coming from. The more I play of 'realistic' games the less I like them. Primarily because they are not realistic at all.

I am a skill junkie, I play games for the fun of getting #1 frags, or assiting my team in victory (by some awesome display of skill). BF2 took that all away. It had a great clan vrs clan when it first came out, but even that died quickly.
Vehicles are awesome but there is nothing like jumping off the walls owning some other players, vehicled take littile skill to use and get kills in. They are what the more hard core among us call LAME. In ET:QW there is a limited supply of vehicles, and while some are there to really kill guys and defend the main passageways, those same vehicles won't be able to defend the smaller routes to the objective. This will make it so the most powerfull vehicles are good to have on your team, but they wont be the sole key to victory like BF2. What vehicle you take will be a tactical decision, not just take the biggest one like BF2. Many times, as stated earlier, the big vehicles are just useless.
SD also ensured us that the gameplay would be very simmilar to W:ET with the quick movement more arcade style gameplay that all the ET fans love. the weapons will be from the quake universe, and hte movement/shooting/gameplay will be from W:ET. Its a mix that can easily be a winner.

I also play another game called PlanetSide which has followed the ways of BF2 by nerfing all the skill based gameplay. We hear so much about 'awarding skill', but then they take out all these cool littile tricks that give you the edge, bringing you down to the same level as the newbie. Skill should be rewarded, and it doesn't need to be through upgraded armor or weapons, or a greater array of abilities, it should be awarded with a game that has deep gameplay that you can realy spend time at and learn every trick in the game. Bunny hopping, strafing, crouch jumpping, circlestrafing, corner humping, trick jumping, where to plant dynamite so others cannot reach it, etc. should all be availible for the player to 'unlock' by his/her personal skill and knowledge of the game, not how many kills they get or how much time they play.

/sarcasm/ Remember folks, nerf everything to the point where you are shooting nerf guns at eachother and everyone will be having so much more fun! /end sarcasm/

I have always considdered the best games to be the ones with the very deep gameplay, also known as Un-nerfed gameplay or non-BF2 style. ;) It looks like ET:QW is following in W:ET's footsteps with the gameplay, and is going to add more depth to the game to make it even better.

[Gringo]

ET is free!! It will, as many people above have said, allow u to get the feel of what QW will be like, movement wise etc etc!

[Lanz]

I still remember the very first time I started the rtcw test demo, loaded up mp_beach and played my first match and said WOW!

It really started a new era for my online gaming.

Nothing to see here, move along! Just got a bit nostalgic here..

[ParanoiD]

I remember downloading ET when weve got ADSL. Since the 1st moment i was addicted. The great thing about Et is taht you dont need 1 v 1 skill as the 1337 ppl. I have a non tweaked cfg and play the games as it is ment to be played in my eyes. Im not good a t 1 v 1 altought i have good moments. But other skills in Engineering and teamwork help me and my team to get further. I only play public, but i can always play with all players, im like teh general on teh field telling what to do, what to not and ginving my team hope on teh victory. Then we work hard to win whele having fun as well. I don't care about stats, the fun and victory in a game does it for me!

[Rhoades]

^lol

[Gringo]

Paranoid being one of a dying breed of people who aint a frag whores! Tbh, frag whores need fragged in real life!

[QW|Genesis]

I just hope that ET will survive.
I'm also getting all impatient and nerve-tingly to try QW but I don't plan on abondoning my roots when I do.
If ET could survive WoW and BF2, despite the hype those games got, then it can pretty much overcome anything (I hope!)
Besides, it is FREE.. so at least the kids who dont get much pocket money.. or parents who give their kids too much pocket money... will always be interested...right?
I'm currently a member of 2 different clans; a fairly large-scale, very dedicated Dutch clan and one of the very very few all-girl teams around.
Both of which, whilst planning on at least trying QW, are not going to abandon ET any time soon.

Or at least, not as long as there is still someone to play against.

[Ciabs]

I remember downloading ET when weve got ADSL. Since the 1st moment i was addicted. The great thing about Et is taht you dont need 1 v 1 skill as the 1337 ppl. I have a non tweaked cfg and play the games as it is ment to be played in my eyes. Im not good a t 1 v 1 altought i have good moments. But other skills in Engineering and teamwork help me and my team to get further. I only play public, but i can always play with all players, im like teh general on teh field telling what to do, what to not and ginving my team hope on teh victory. Then we work hard to win whele having fun as well. I don't care about stats, the fun and victory in a game does it for me!

we should play alongside someday, you play just as I do... :)

Fun&Teamplay >>> Fragging

[Gringo]

Indeed Genesis, long live ET even when QW arrives!

[Hakuryu]

I hate BF2 also, and have reached First Seargent with nearly all silver medals, so I didnt just give up on it easily. The cone of fire absolutely killed the game for me... unloading into a guy 20 feet away and missing with your crosshair on them is NOT fun.

ET does not handicap your aim like this, nor does Quake Wars according to a few reviews I have read. In fact, one guy specifically mentioned that he was happy that you hit what you actually aimed at unlike BF2.

[gerry]

Don't really understand why everyone wants to be able to bounce around like a tool while firing and retaining perfect accuracey. That kinda craps been the standard in practically every id game ever made and its gotten boring as hell ove the years since the tactics basically work in all their games. Then people do the same crap in games like bf2 which are trying to be a litle more realistic then cry and complain when they can't rabbit around the maps anymore. Sorry but if all games followed the standard quake trends then they'd virtually be duplicates of each other with different skins and weapons, and the occasional vehicle tossed in for good measure. Just seems to me that people get so used to the quake style of playing which is so outdated its not funny they become to accustomed to ONLY playing that way and they jump on the "omg that game is crap" bandwagon when a game comes around that doesn't support that style of play. Doom 3 and quake 4 had a similar style of mp to quake 3 ( more quake 4 than doom 3) and the servers are practicaly empty for these games. To me that says people are getting bored of the same old shit multiplayer which has been the id trademark since quake 2. Say whatever you want but the fact theres barely any player for these games makes a statement that the quake2\3 methods of gameplay are dieing out since its been around so damn long. Id like to see quakewars become a rvial to bf2 but if its gonna let you strafejump and bounce around the map like a tool while firing and killing everything in sight then this game may as well be quake 4 with a few vehicles chucked into it and will probably only have any degre of popularity for a few months before people switch back to bf2 or bf2142.

Im not a bf2 fanboy by any means, ive got annoyed with that game for months with the amount of dumb bugs ea\dice still seem incompetant to fix.

[B0rsuk]

Don't really understand why everyone wants to be able to bounce around like a tool while firing and retaining perfect accuracey. (CUT)

Have you ever tried jumping and firing in W:ET ? Do you have any idea what does it do to your accuracy ? No ? Hint - look at crosshairs.

[gerry]

Never bothered playing wolf et for any amount of time because of the nerfed smg's, i stuck more to rtcw mp. Saying that though people Do seem to expect id games to play a certain way and to me its done more damage to the company in recent years than good since doom 3 was released and did "ok" at best then quake 4 came out and never had much impact.

[kamikazee]

The SMG's are just equal for both teams in W:ET, but they're not easier to handle for that reason. If you don't play W:ET, I guess ET:QW might not be for you either. Opinions can differ. :/

Doom 3 hadn't got a good MP, with only support for 8 players iirc. I still think of Doom 3 as an engine showcase by making a SP.
Quake 4... I don't know. Never really played it, but the MP seemed like a rehashed version of Quake 3. That is probably the problem, the gameplay looks similar.
ET:QW might change this trend.

And about the trickjumping: I think it should be hard to do, but not impossible. It should be a skill, not a general way of play.

[gerry]

The SMG's are just equal for both teams in W:ET, but they're not easier to handle for that reason. If you don't play W:ET, I guess ET:QW might not be for you either. Opinions can differ.

Doom 3 hadn't got a good MP, with only support for 8 players iirc. I still think of Doom 3 as an engine showcase by making a SP.
Quake 4... I don't know. Never really played it, but the MP seemed like a rehashed version of Quake 3. That is probably the problem, the gameplay looks similar.
ET:QW might change this trend.

And about the trickjumping: I think it should be hard to do, but not impossible. It should be a skill, not a general way of play.



I think one of the problems of quakewars is both trailers do make it look like an alternative to bf2, they dont really show any arcadey elements and the gameplay shown doesn't have any of the regular quake style of playing in it. It's a game i'll definately have to wait on a demo on before deciding to buy it, i think it'll turn out good in the end though :)

[kamikazee]

Agreed, that's what I try to tell people as well when they compare it too much to BF2. ;)

[Brutus]

1. Nerfed weapons - highly inaccurate with large cones of fire making it more computer generated luck than skill in the killing of opponents

I have not found the weapons to be inaccurate. All it takes is a little aiming, instead of running around firing wildly.

2. Delays introduced by patches on certain gameplay actions such a proning and the firing of certain weapons

'Dolphin Diving' was not a 'skill', it was a cheap tactic since it allowed you to fire, with great accuracy, while jumping all over the screen.[/quote]

3. Nerfing of jumping and shooting

Couldn't care less either way. I didn't consider it a great skill, but did it myself all the time.

4. Nerfing of shooting and moving

One of the better things they did, and I think it will be like that for ETQW, as well as most games that come out in the future.

5. A general dumbing down of everything in BF2 to suit the lowest possible denominator, the whiners, who complained and demanded the removal of everything in the game that better'ed them.

Like what? Dolphin diving was an exploit that was not intended, so it was fixed, jumping and shooting with accuracy was never intended, and it was fixed. A lot of the stuff that was fixed was never intended to be in the game.

What many of us in the Battlefield community are interested in hearing therefore is ID / Splash's philosophy for gameplay in ETQW.

I think you may be disapointed about running and accuracy, and I'm sure tweaks will happen when they find certain weapons and classes overpowered.

The 'majority' of people did not leave the game due to these changes, and 'Top Clans' represent a very small postion of the BF2 playing community.

I personaly can't wait for ETQW, and as long as the netcode isn't garbage (I doubt it will be) and the classes are balanced, unlike aircraft and AA in BF2, it will be a great game in my opinion.

[kamikazee]

The weapons in W:ET are more accurate then the average BF2 gun...

[Isabel Lucas]

Brutus I strongly disagree with what you say about BF2 although you are entitled to your opinion.

Over 20,000 players have left BF2 since it was released and that represents almost 50% of the player base in only 6 months. The competition scene has all but collapsed and with over 20,000 players in total leaving, that represents a large slice of the pub players leaving also. Those figures don't support your assertion that the nerfs have improved the game and that players are generally happy with the weapons and the gameplay.

As for the weapons not being inaccurate, maybe thats down to your experience / level of player skill. I don't mean that in an offensive way, rather just that your own skill level can have a profound effect on your ability to judge the effectiveness of a games weapons systems.

For your benefit and for anyone who's interested, 2 short videos showing 1942 accuracy and subsequent BF2 accuracy (2mb approx each). The difference is clear to see:

1942 medic gun: http://files.filefront.com/Inaccuracy_1942wmv/;4198657;;/fileinfo.html

BF2 medic gun: http://files.filefront.com/Inaccuracywmv/;4198517;;/fileinfo.html

If you think ETQW is going to be the game for you, I think talking to the other guys on here you will be disappointed. Its seems, as I thought was the case, that QW and ET have a long history of jumping and shooting and it sounds as if thats going to continue from the replies / developer interviews I've seen. Maybe 2142 would be a better option for you.

As for me, I have unfortunately parted ways with my clan [HOT], since 1st posting and so I am no longer sure if I'm going to continue gaming at the moment. One thing is for sure, if I do, then I will certainly be giving ETQW a try based on what I've heard so far.

Al.

[Zyklon]

Doom 3 and quake 4 had a similar style of mp to quake 3 ( more quake 4 than doom 3) and the servers are practicaly empty for these games. To me that says people are getting bored of the same old shit multiplayer which has been the id trademark since quake 2. Say whatever you want but the fact theres barely any player for these games makes a statement that the quake2\3 methods of gameplay are dieing out since its been around so damn long.

Doom 3 wasn't intended for mp (they just put it in because of the constnt whining of some people), so it was barely playable, because of bad performance, bad netcode, bad balancing, low player numbers, etc.
Quake 4's mp was just a carbon copy of vanilla Q3's, they only added one gun, worse performance, worse netcode, and removed a tad of maps and playermodels. Quake 3 is still popular after all these years, and people stick to it rather than switching over to the Q4MP, just because it is the same game less a tad of features.

And also, the gaming community seems to become sadly a bunch of newbs that prefer having luck and "REALIMS!!!!@@@" in their games than real skill. Quakers (and UTlers and RTCWlers and ETlers...) might have even become a minority these days, but it's still a large minority, and it deserves to have some good games instead of having to play Arcade-Realism junk or play some slowly developing lagging badly balanced and slow OSS fps.

[gerry]

Doom 3 and quake 4 had a similar style of mp to quake 3 ( more quake 4 than doom 3) and the servers are practicaly empty for these games. To me that says people are getting bored of the same old shit multiplayer which has been the id trademark since quake 2. Say whatever you want but the fact theres barely any player for these games makes a statement that the quake2\3 methods of gameplay are dieing out since its been around so damn long.

Doom 3 wasn't intended for mp (they just put it in because of the constnt whining of some people), so it was barely playable, because of bad performance, bad netcode, bad balancing, low player numbers, etc.
Quake 4's mp was just a carbon copy of vanilla Q3's, they only added one gun, worse performance, worse netcode, and removed a tad of maps and playermodels. Quake 3 is still popular after all these years, and people stick to it rather than switching over to the Q4MP, just because it is the same game less a tad of features.

And also, the gaming community seems to become sadly a bunch of newbs that prefer having luck and "REALIMS!!!!@@@" in their games than real skill. Quakers (and UTlers and RTCWlers and ETlers...) might have even become a minority these days, but it's still a large minority, and it deserves to have some good games instead of having to play Arcade-Realism junk or play some slowly developing lagging badly balanced and slow OSS fps.Depends what way you define "realism" in games. I wouldn't classsfiy bf2 as realistic at all, the quake games are far from realistic but in terms of gameplay quake 2 quake 3 quake 4 are essentially very similar besides improved graphics and effects etc. I recall a quote from tim willits a while ago, he called quake 3 his biggest failure since it just played exactly how hardcore quake playerds wanted it any any new players to the game were put off by getting hammered on most of the servers, (then quake 4 comes out with quake 3 multi so i dunno why he seen it as a failure and then they allowed raven to rehash it). I'd like to see quakewars have a nice balance of gameplay in it, last thing i wanna se is people boucning from one end of the map to the other racking up 99 kills with their rail gun and firing rockets at the ground just to make themselves jump higher. Clearly quakewars is not a deathmath game so hopefully the deathmatch elements are missing from it and its a more team orientated game.

[madness]

uh..play W:ET and you'll know what it plays like. Plus add some vehicles:P

[Brutus]

Brutus I strongly disagree with what you say about BF2 although you are entitled to your opinion.

Over 20,000 players have left BF2 since it was released and that represents almost 50% of the player base in only 6 months. The competition scene has all but collapsed and with over 20,000 players in total leaving, that represents a large slice of the pub players leaving also. Those figures don't support your assertion that the nerfs have improved the game and that players are generally happy with the weapons and the gameplay.

They don't enforce your assertion that it has hurt the game either. The number of players that play during any time has gone from 40K to about 25K. A number of factors need to be considered, such as the natural decline of a game over time due to new game releases, etc.

As for the weapons not being inaccurate, maybe thats down to your experience / level of player skill. I don't mean that in an offensive way, rather just that your own skill level can have a profound effect on your ability to judge the effectiveness of a games weapons systems.

I didn't take it as an offense, I took it as a compliment. I guess my skill level does determine how I am effected by the weapons in a game. A lot of people find the M95 and other sniper rifles not as accurate as they should be. I have no problem with and I am able to hit what I am shooting at. Same with the other guns. Try short bursts, not full auto, that may be your problem.

If you think ETQW is going to be the game for you, I think talking to the other guys on here you will be disappointed. Its seems, as I thought was the case, that QW and ET have a long history of jumping and shooting and it sounds as if thats going to continue from the replies / developer interviews I've seen. Maybe 2142 would be a better option for you.

I think you are only hearing what you want to hear. You should try RtCW:ET and see how you like it. It's a fun game and if you like that you should like ET:QW.

As for me, I have unfortunately parted ways with my clan [HOT], since 1st posting and so I am no longer sure if I'm going to continue gaming at the moment. One thing is for sure, if I do, then I will certainly be giving ETQW a try based on what I've heard so far.

I'm not sure who [HOT] is, but you should try RtCW:ET to see how you like it. It's a great game, and while most things will probably stay the same, I'm sure there will be some changes. Either way I'm sure it will be a great game.

Al.
[/quote]

[kamikazee]

I'm not sure who [HOT] is, but you should try RtCW:ET to see how you like it. It's a great game, and while most things will probably stay the same, I'm sure there will be some changes. Either way I'm sure it will be a great game.
Just nitpicking here, but it's supposed to be W:ET. ;)

[Brutus]

Just nitpicking here, but it's supposed to be W:ET.


Thanks, that shortens my typing when telling people about it.

[gerry]

uh..play W:ET and you'll know what it plays like. Plus add some vehicles:P



IM just gonna wiat for the dem to se how it plays, basically the best way to do it instead of asuming things that might not be true :)

[kamikazee]

True, but W:ET is still a nice game to waste the time in-between. :D