NaturalPoint's TrackIr and Vector System for ET:QW??

[dinky658]

I posted this in the wish list but I wanted to make sure that everyone read it, and to see if people would buy TrackIr/Vector if this was capable in ET:QW via a forum Poll.

I really think Splash should look into this.

Here's the post in quote and a link to the wishlist page:

http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=13106&start=240
"I think that NaturalPoint's TrackIr should have support in this game.

If you don't already know what this is, check out this webpage and read my following explanation. http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir

TrackIr is well known in the area of Flight Sim and Racing sim games. It's an Infrared camera that you set up on your desk or monitor, you put on a hat (and the Vector clip if you have that as well) and the Infrared tracks the reflective surfaces on the hat/vector.

From the way it tracks the movement of your head it imitates your movement, on the in-game cockpit view.

I noticed in one of the render screenshots for a vehicle that will be in ET:QW that it is a completely 3d cockpit. If you were to use NaturalPoint's TrackIr system, you could have players (who have TrackIr and Vector) move and look around inside of that 3d cockpit smiply by moving their head.

Without VectorPro you are limited to the rotating axis of X and Y, but with Vector you have the movement and rotation of XYZ and you can roll your head in the cockpit (when it comes to games that support it, or other wise, have a completely 3d cockpit).

If you're skeptical of how this system works, check out this video. http://media.naturalpoint.com/video/games/LockOn-BlackShark-6DOF-Demo.wmv
That video was recorded while someone was using the Vector Pro AND TrackIr camera.

If you want to see what it's like for the user, check out this video (though no Vector is being used).
http://media.naturalpoint.com/video/games/np-lomac1_web.wmv

If you guys at Splash damage were to pick this up, you guys would be the FIRST development team to use TrackIr in works with a FPS game (though what I'm suggesting is only inside a vehicle cockpit).

I play Flight sims often, and I also play BF2. And what really irritates me is that BF2 doesn't support TrackIr for when I'm in the aircraft. I'll be flying around in the jet and I try moving my head around to look and find an enemy only to become mad at myself because I forgot that I'm in BF2 rather than in a Flight sim with my TrackIr.

I think this would be something that people would really find an interest in and would get more people looking at ET:QW.

I'm going to see about making a seperate thread on this, to make sure everyone reads it :)."

By the way, I didn't use /quote because that stuff makes Links hard to find.

[kamikazee]

I'm asking myself: what does this thing do that a joystick can't do in some way? Can't it be possible to use this thing through a normal joystick driver if you bind the functions well?

[dinky658]

Huh???

You're not moving the vehicle with your head. You're moving your prespective with your head. You look around.

This thing isn't a joystick, that's just what the guy on the vid says as sort of a metaphor. It works like a joystick because it's continually updated and looking at your head for updates or something...

Either way this is a PERSPECTIVE changer. Basically, you look a little bit up, it looks up in-game. Not move up.

But if your saying that you would get a seperate joystick just to move your perspective around.... Well that sounds weird and difficult... So you would have one joystick to control the vehicle and one joystick to look around?? ...... Weird.

With TrackIr you don't even need to think about using a controller or the top POV hat on a joystick to look around, and it's as fast as you are. You just move your head and you look around, just like real life.

Except the sensitivity is different.... I don't know why people automatically assume (like the guy says in the video) that you have to break your neck just to look behind you. Or that you won't be able to see the monitor if you are trying to look behind you.

You can even adjust the sensitivity if you want to! It's programmable like a mouse.

Here's an image for people who are concerned about this.... And I hope you can understand what it means...
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7615/preview6hl.jpg

[kamikazee]

Well, you got those joysticks with that "POV stick".
I believe this thing can be treated the same way as a joystick with only such a stick, can't it?

[dinky658]

No those things are very SLOW and innacurate. Why spend time with your thumb on the POV stick THINKING about how you should move this innacurate thing when you can have your head doing the moving for you. It's fast, you don't have to think about it and your thumb is on the weapons buttons where it needs to be.

Not only that, but it really makes you feel like you're ACTUALLY flying the aircraft!!!

[kamikazee]

Ok, I was a little too fast.
I'm not talking about how this thing handles, just how to get it to work in-game. The problem with the POV stick is not what you're saying, my idea just doesn't allow your device's driver to sync your head position with the in-game head quite well.

I believe this needs some special code, like you said.

[KAGE]

lol the last thing i need is a bunch of 'flyboys' who pwn everything in teh air..
but yeah.. there is a huge demographic into that stuff and they are not affaid of making themselves known.

i would say too much money for the Trackir.. but the idea is ok...
sey.. ctrl + mouse for free look.. yeah?
would be a good option for the perspective thing.. as many use the 'exterior' view of vehicals to look around corners.

[dinky658]

I don't understand what you mean Kamikazee??

And KAGE, in BF2 I avoid doing that as much as possible. When you push CRTL+Mouse you lose all control of the vehicle, the vehicle doesn't automatically stabilize or anything while you look around, it can smash into the ground or something. And especially if you use a Joystick/Throttle. You have to let go of the joystick and/or throttle hold onto control them move your mouse around. Too much hassle, you get yourself killed, NO one attempts that stuff in a fast moving aircraft. And the Exterier view turns off all your aiming stuff, I don't know of anyone that does that just to see around a corner when they could just move a little bit...

You may be right about the jet pilots flying around eliminating everyone, but we haven't even played the game yet. We don't know what the balance is between the aircraft and infantry with or without TrackIr is yet.

I just think it would be an awesome idea, and again it could get some serious attention to ET: QW, and Natural Point.

[fattakin]

Its sounds crazy, my fiancee would probabaly board up the door to my gaming room if she seen me putting on my special hat to play wolfenstein.. she thinks im bad enough as it is!!!

But the idea sounds interesting!

[[]v[]]

simply doesnt work. i have a helmet which does just this, its collecting dust somewhere.
After only a few minutes my neck was in serious pain, the problem being you look directly at the screen, but you have too move your head to change your view, so your for ever trying to fix your eyes on the screen, while trying too move your head slowly enough for the screen to sit still . if someone makes me an offer they can have it.

[SniperSteve]

Hmmm. Not for FPS games. Only Flight/Driving sims.

[ParanoiD]

Yep not for me, ill just keep it at my keyboard and beloved mouse :)

[EB]

::wonders how much $ he makes for trying to pimp this idea to SD::

[Jaquboss]

[]v[] has a point, with 17' CRT monitor i can forget about this..
it would be best to combine with some kind of googles projecting your view or getting more monitors
note that rendering more will also result in FPS drop
Anyway this sounds like propaganda :nag:

[carnage]

sounds like the idea could pwn some time in the suture when we all wear headsets with two slighly differnt images so we stimulate the depth perseption part of the brain then this would go great with it

but i think it could be quite unfair as many players cant afford the kit and large monitors to run this kind of system... the idea does apeal to me though and your video looking around the cockpit being able to actuly move the head left and right as well as trurning real gave more of an impresion of being inside the plane

[Snipeydope]

Surely if you turning you head to look to the side then you can't see your monitor.

[B0rsuk]

Surely if you turning you head to look to the side then you can't see your monitor.

He'd repply by saying that you can increase sensitivity of that thing... so a small movement moves the view quite a bit.

Which in turn forces you to sit very straight. It's a lose-lose situation, and topic starter is probably a shill.

[kamikazee]

I wonder what someone spectating someone using this thing sees. Especially if the view goes crazy when that player is just going crazy.

[dinky658]

Ok the sensitivity is always higher at a default setting so that it doesn't do that, but you can modify your settings depending on the game that you're playing.

But this is much better than some "Helmet". This is the first product I've ever tried and had for flight sims for things of this nature. It's amazing, and it doesn't hurt your neck while or after play. You're only wearing a baseball cap for one (or you could use the Stickers that come with it when you buy it).

As for it not being fair to the people who can't afford it... So what? Not every Flight simulator player can afford this thing, and yet they still play multiplayer and they still do well. Not every FPSer can afford a Copperhead, or... That uhh Logitech mouse :P. Not every gamer can afford a 1900xtx, and they get a much lower framerate.

Believe me, if you could just try it you would know that it works great, it doesn't hurt it's easy to use. It NEVER loses track of the hat and you can blame that on the awesome Infrared, though you can also blame the price on the infrared too.

I think if Splash Damage did put this in as an option... It would be awesome... Because I have one :).

[NaturalPoint-Warren]

oh ho, cool.
I was just looking into how to officially get in touch with Splash Damage, and see the TrackIR debate already raging.

I'd like to chime in too, if you don't mind, Dr. Dinky. Probably not the best time since everyone is now calling you a "shill" (sorry dude, this seems to be what happens when anyone preaches the joys of TrackIR, or any new input device), but i'd like clarify where NaturalPoint stands on all this:

- We don't think TrackIR would offer much to footsoldier FPS modes in a battlefield-style game like this, because you generally want your game-eyes glued to where your game-gun is aimed. Maybe there are times when the action will slow down and you'll want to look around, but we doubt anyone would want our system for that tiny perk.

- Our interest is support for planes/vehicles (and maybe ground guns). being able to look around naturally while flying is TrackIR's big thing. So you can look around the cockpit struts to keep an eye on an enemy, Or watch your back while unloading from a big ground gun. I only expect flyers and drivers to care about TrackIR at this point.

All in all, the big question in my head is : what do people want from this game?
It's not a hardcore sim, so people tend to be afraid of adding something that can make the control scheme more realistic.
Most people here seem to be arguing over running speed, or how much xp you earn with kills, or spawnraping.

I think adding support for TrackIR is as necessary as having support for a joystick. Not everyone will use it, but those that do will be extremely grateful. I'd suggest leaving the footsoldier mode alone (although i pine for it too. sniff).

[carnage]

although a very nice cockpit idea but if you read the reviews then the pilot is said to have semi control of weapons

so again you will want the camera pointing where the guns are... and it would make it pretty hard when you have to keep your head perfectly still since the rotation is amplified so much

[NaturalPoint-Warren]

At the risk of overloading this thread, here are some replies to different thoughts::

- Kamikazee : TrackIR lets you move and rotate your view in 3D space, as fast as a mouse, just by moving and rotating a little in your seat. Joysticks and view nobs don't come close to the speed, precision, or freedom. As for what spectating looks like, check out this video :
http://media.naturalpoint.com/games/hl2mod/erics-vids/TrackIR-HLDM1.wmv
(we tinkered with an HL2 mod a bit last year before deciding normal FPS shooters were a tricky can o worms)

- []v[] : which horrible helmet did you have? TrackIR's camera captures and processes your motion 120 times a second in all 6 degrees of freedom. I'm unaware of any vr helmet doodad that could come close the fidelity. (p.s. sorry your helmet was aweful)

-EB : no where near the zillions of dollars we're paying you to pretend to be skeptical, you old dog. In fact, i believe everyone posting in this thread is secretly on the NP payroll. it's all a puppet chess game controlled by the global elite! yippee! paranoia has no limits on the internet! woohoo!

-Jaquboss and carnage: You're thinking of "goggle vr" which utterly failed back in the 90s (mostly due to phenomenon called "vestibulo-ocular reflex")(not kidding. look it up.). TrackIR offers a different experience (called "fishtank vr" by researchers), because your monitor becomes a "responsive window" into the game world, based on how you move around.

-Snipeydope: You don't hold the mouse behind you to turn around, and the same is true of TrackIR. Your motion is amplified and you can adjust it's speed to your liking using the software. Just like a mouse, less than an inch of movement can rotate your view completely. It's all up to you.

- carnage : If planes turned as fast as footsoldiers, it might be problematic to keep track of where your vehicle and guns were pointed. I feel You're underestimating the level of adjustability TrackIR gives you for amplifying your motions into game control (it's not hard to "hold still" or "look straight ahead"). This is the kind of fidelity concern that is best addressed by using it.

[kamikazee]

- Kamikazee : TrackIR lets you move and rotate your view in 3D space, as fast as a mouse, just by moving and rotating a little in your seat. Joysticks and view nobs don't come close to the speed, precision, or freedom. As for what spectating could look like, check out this video :
http://media.naturalpoint.com/games/hl2mod/erics-vids/TrackIR-HLDM1.wmv
(we tinkered with an HL2 mod a bit last year before deciding normal FPS shooters were a tricky can o worms)

I'm convinced of all things you're saying.
I was just thinking of what would be the easiest path to adding support for this thing. Then I realised (see my post above) it can not at all be compared with a joystick, as you just proved again. Please do not reply on them as I hate deleting posts.

[SCDS_reyalP]

It's a bit hard to say how much point there would be in having something like trackir in ET:QW, since no one but SD knows how the game actually plays (and they aren't talking much).

I do know that a lot of hard core flight sim guys swear by trackir, and the concept certainly makes sense in that context.

It seems likely that vehicles in ET:QW would benefit, but it seems likely that the vast majority of FPS players wouldn't want to spend that kind of money for something that amounts to a little extra. I'm sure those who already own the device would be happy to see it supported in more games.

NaturalPoint-Warren:
You may be dismissive of the idea, but a companies do pay people to 'shill' online. It is a sleazy but highly targeted marketing technique. When one guy comes along and posts what looks like a sales pitch for your product, and then you show up the next day, it certainly brings that idea to mind. Mind you, I'm not accusing you in particular, just noting that it isn't a ridiculous idea.

[EB]

-EB : no where near the zillions of dollars we're paying you to pretend to be skeptical, you old dog. In fact, i believe everyone posting in this thread is secretly on the NP payroll. it's all a puppet chess game controlled by the global elite! SD is actually on the payroll too! yippee! paranoia has no limits on the internet! woohoo!There are people who have purposely joined this forum just to pimp businesses and seeing that 90% of the thread starter's posts are in this thread-trying to convince people of the "greatness" and "|337ness" of this object....well, it does seem pretty schemeful. If he does work for them....o well, if he doesn't work for them...o well. It doesn't bother me either way. I was mainly sharing a moment with my fellow veteran forumers that know the history of threads like this.

Concerning your post: I really see no use for the words "paranoia" and "skeptical" even within the sarcasm. :P
So.....do you work for the company ?

[corvey]

I think it would be a great idea for handicapped players who didn't have use of their arms and wanted to play. I think I read somewhere a long time ago that it was going to be mandatory for software makers to implement handicap features. May not pertain to this particular device, but some special features.

Other than the fact if it was to be added for players who needed it for disabilities, I don't think it's that great of an idea for the norm.



As for me, I'll stick with good ol' keyboard and mouse.

[carnage]

As for me, I'll stick with good ol' keyboard and mouse.

fair enough however at some time games will have to addapt after all well never progress if we hang onto all the old things forever

anyone tried flying helicopters in bf1942 desert combat will know that its ni on imposible without a joystick and even then realy limits what you can do... will be interesting to see how the helis in ETWQ handel with/without joysticks

[Dazzamac]

I've heard of it before. Used to play flight combat sims before ET. Don't think it has a market in FPS. That and its only for the hardcore flightsimmers.

[dinky658]

Hey I played Desert Combat and flied the Heli's with the mouse only, I tried a joystick and that only made it harder. And as for BF2, I fly heli's with the mouse and that's where I have skill, I go from real high to REALLY low in just a couple of seconds, usually my gunner jumps out 'cause he think's I'm gunna crash. I fly the jets with joystick and throttle though.

I don't want anyone to get confused though, I was asking everyone if they would buy TrackIr if ET: QW if it was capable in flying vehicles in ET: QW.

I don't see why SD shouldn't have the OPTION for people to be able to use TrackIr if they already have one or if they got one for Air Vehicles in ET: QW.

And the way I'm suggesting is that TrackIr would only work for the Air Vehicles... Not while your on foot. Hate to point out the obvious but people don't usually see the obvious.... For example... "How are you going to see the screen of your turning your head to move your view??"... That's kind of a stupid question... No offense. It's asked and worst of all people assume it a lot.

[carnage]

could this cause feeling sickness? if you are rotating your head right your eyes have to track left to see what you would normal see to the right

i have herd about sickness when using other headseats

also i gess if there isnt a realy massive advantage to the player using it against the keyboard and mouse it wouldnt hurt to have it in. Although i expect there will be features that may not make it to the final realse because of cost/time constraints and this seems that it could be fairly low in priority when considering how may users will be able to and use it, as well as how beneficail the effects could be

[dinky658]

I've never heard of anyone getting sick from using TrackIr... I've known people who get sick from playing games. Those poor people... They don't get to have fun =/.

[carnage]

it was using headsets that had poor tracking or were missing rotations on the z axis or something. this gave the user a very strange feeling when tilting the head posibly as they antisipate the world to rotate as it stays still be apears to move with the playe

just a though since this headset does not have a 1:1 ratio of degrease the head is turned to that in game. as well as teh fact that the image you are looking at is not direcly in front of you

[Apocalypse]

'Great', turn ETQW into another glorified flight-sim.... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: