Splash DamageBlogCommunity Question: V-Says and Automated Communication

Splash Damage Blog

Community Question: V-Says and Automated Communication

Communication has been an important part of all of our games so far and we've used different approaches over the years. This has included everything from manual v-says (pre-recorded voice clips you can play via keyboard shortcuts) tp fully automated systems that let your team know what you're up to based on your actions and your character's status. With these systems having such a fundamental effect on the way you play the game, and what kind of information is passed along and when, we'd like to know the following from you this week:

Which in-game communication/v-say system is your favourite?

Is full control absolutely vital to you? Can you not be bothered to use voice messages at all in the midst of battle? Do you prefer partial automation?

Cast your vote in our latest poll and let us know the reasons behind your choice in the comments.

122 Comments

Hybrid. I'm completely worthless at remembering to let people know what I'm doing, and half the time I forget what keys do what, or I'm concentrating so hard on not dying in 6 seconds that I can't push more buttons. Sometimes, however, I like to be a giant child with v-says (like in ET, for example, running around going "Jahaha") so it's nice to have that available too :)
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 14:24
I'd rather handle it all myself, and If I *really* need something automated then I can add it to a script. I don't need every reload, grenade throw, spotted enemy to be shouted out in public.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 15:20
QW got this spot-on in my opinion (not just the v-says system but the large number of clips to keep things fresh and the tongue-in-cheek tone.) An elegant quick-chat dial, mouse-wheel-scrollable nested menus and the freedom to map shortcuts to any key. One way to improve the dial might be to include more context sensitive options and a slightly more generous snap to targets/objectives. Oh, and maybe show the keyboard shortcut path like Tribes:A.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 15:47
Something ive bitched about since pre-alpha of brink. Good to see you guys considering other options ;) QW method was perfect, as already stated. When you hear someone ask for something, you can take it seriously. You know they will go out of their way to make your job easier, either by stopping what they originally planned on doing, waiting for you... or by taking the initiative and actually coming to you. Manual v-says essentially indicate intent, which is the bread and butter of pub play comms. Players shouldnt need to go into text chat, nor should they feel the need to use voip, which is basically what was required to play Brink. It also adds personality to the game. It feels alive. You want the game to reflect the fact that you are playing against actual people, which is the point of MP. And by MP i mean multiplayer, not mingleplayer ;)
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 16:10
Now I get that Vsays are impossible for console players. So this is one of the many questions that needs to be answered seperately for each platform. Automated voices aren't selective, 'enemy spotted' doesn't mean anything when the enemies are already all over the place. In QW the vsays meant something because an actual human considered it worth going through the effort of saying it. If someone shouts 'medic!' in QW then the actual player wants a medic rather, this is way more valuable for the medic than hearing 'medic!' whenever someone goes down. SD needs to understand that when it comes to the tiny details that make PC-shooters worthwhile, they nailed pretty much everything in QW. Please just give the PC-gamers whatever QW did because it did it right. These little things aren't always possible for the console (and Brink did a good job at finding a compromise for that platform) and should be adjusted for that platform specifically (and not be translated back to the PC again).
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 17:29
All these Community Questions keep turning into a "ETQW did it best" :D
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 17:32
Haha true Deathwish, personnaly I always vote the ETQW-like option! ;)
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 17:44
All these Community Questions keep turning into a "ETQW did it best" :D
There simply isn't another game like it, and that includes SD games.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 17:58
I'm always wary of simply answering each of these questions with "just do it like QW" because I don't think FPS design has totally stagnated over the last 5 years. But for communication QW really did have the best of all worlds.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 18:12
I do think FPS design has stagnated since ETQW. Brink employed a few concepts that should definitely be integrated (and I can think of a few hundred more) but the mechanics are all there and they're top notch.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 18:50
Really? I got sick of hearing "GRENAADDDEE!" all the time. Simple vsays do it for me.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 18:51
I voted hybrid. Unlike DAUK I thought it was very useful to have players automatically shout grenade, never bothered me. Pretty much everything else needs to be manual though. The biggest reason for that has been posted already: If someone goes through the effort of saying it, it must be important. If everyone is automatically screaming for a medic all the time, you just start filtering that out after a while.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 18:57
Really? I got sick of hearing "GRENAADDDEE!" all the time. Simple vsays do it for me.
Grenade was a functional one as it warned the opponents as well. Way better than any visual cue.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:02
Grenade shouting? lol *** its been a while since ive played, but i remember that to be more of a balance / mechanic thing. Like you give your position away, and it gives the enemy a chance to get out of the way. I guess it could have been useful for warning team-mates, but I never really saw it designed for that. But like I said, its been a while - memory is rooted
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:10
Yeah it's a balance choice.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:13
Also I like how ETQW didn't have this problem: Saw it on the Reddit frontpage (and you don't get on the frontpage that easily). Really well thought out SD.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:16
Too much automation tends to wash things out. I'm fine with little things being automated (spotting enemies, shouting grenade), but manually activating most everything works the best for tactics. What I really love about vsays is how well they can work in pubs. It's a great feeling when you do some on-the-fly coordination with a player you've never met.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:52
I found it extremely annoying, I couldn't a flying fu... helicopter if it was a balance/mechanic thing. And really, who alerts the enemy that they're throwing a grenade at them?
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 19:56
Some automatic reactions are nice and create a good atmosphere. But they should be able to be muted and not effect gameplay in general as they can annoy the player if he hears 5 times "grenade" per minute. I missed direct commands for team members (follow, protect, defend objective, repair, escort, need a medic, need ammo, need class x, I am class x, need weapon buff, need flak jacket, ...) and reactions for the global chat (great shot, thanks, sorry, yes, no, cheering, good game...) in brink. I hate running around without ammo and no way to notify all soldiers that I need ammo. Running back to the CP to resupply was the result of that. It's something that was great in ET. In the end it's just a shortcut for writing in the chat, but it's faster and if it creates symbols for the classes, it's just great because most beginners do not give ammo to the people around them by themselves. It's important that these are mutable because they are exploitable to annoy the enemy or to create lag. Oh and make sure that these notices aren't drawn where your crosshair wants to aim. it should be made impossible for them to cover the enemy with these symbols. That's something that bothered me with brink and led to some deaths because a teammate who was in need of a revive lay in front of an enemy and I couldn't see that enemy because of the symbol on the HUD. The possibility to scale these icons would be wonderful to avoid this scenario.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 20:11
Hybrid or manual, I'll take either - but please please let us have the possibility to trigger manual vsays in your next game, this was one of the biggest disappointments in brink IMO. v56 ftw, I can still not understand how this feature which worked so great both in ET and QW was left out. As an alternative to hybrid, it would be cool if the recipient of the message could control which ones to hear automatically.
What I really love about vsays is how well they can work in pubs. It's a great feeling when you do some on-the-fly coordination with a player you've never met.
+1 Edit:Tribes Ascend got voicechats, with a really nice addition - you can see which keycombination was used for a vsay whenever someone sends a message, so you learn them a lot quicker!
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 20:11
And really, who alerts the enemy that they're throwing a grenade at them?
The same people who put a loud chargeup sound on their rocket launchers and a arming sound on their shrapnel grenades. I wouldn't mind if the nade throw was a mechanical sound as long as it remained very distinctive audio cue.
Too much automation tends to wash things out. I'm fine with little things being automated (spotting enemies, shouting grenade), but manually activating most everything works the best for tactics.
Anything automated should be a locally broadcast sound.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 20:15
Sorry dude I disagree, those examples you mentioned are programmed, shouting 'GRENADE!' is optional and I doubt every soldier shouts it in every single situation.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 20:36
Tribes Ascend got voicechats, with a really nice addition - you can see which keycombination was used for a vsay whenever someone sends a message, so you learn them a lot quicker!
The Tribes Ascend community will find a lot of things to complain about, but everyone will agree that the game wouldn't be complete without the vsays. It's been pretty much unchanged since the first Tribes - because it works so well!
Anything automated should be a locally broadcast sound.
Yeah I totally agree.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 21:22
Sorry dude I disagree, those examples you mentioned are programmed, shouting 'GRENADE!' is optional and I doubt every soldier shouts it in every single situation.
I doubt any soldier pulls out a pair of pliers and starts brandishing them at a supply dump when they are ordered to build a bridge. Certainly no medic is going to pull out his (and not her) AR and mow down his wounded comrades so he can pop them back to good health a second later. Only the devoutly religious believe they can heroically rush to their death with the certainty that they will be resurrected, seconds later. That doesn't mean these mechanics are bad, it means the [U]game[/U] has mechanics that differ from real life.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 21:52
All these Community Questions keep turning into a "ETQW did it best" :D
They do & it did :infiltrator:
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 21:53
I doubt any soldier pulls out a pair of pliers and starts brandishing them at a supply dump when they are ordered to build a bridge. Certainly no medic is going to pull out his (and not her) AR and mow down his wounded comrades so he can pop them back to good health a second later. Only the devoutly religious believe they can heroically rush to their death with the certainty that they will be resurrected, seconds later. That doesn't mean these mechanics are bad, it means the [U]game[/U] has mechanics that differ from real life.
Dude, you're the one that brought real life scenarios into the mix, only yourself to blame for that one (ok I kinda did, but mine was tongue in cheek). I'd rather have control of when I can shout it, which we know is perfectly plausable and a far better options than voice spam to a point where it's usefulness is completely overridden.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 22:45
All these Community Questions keep turning into a "ETQW did it best" :D
Apart from ETQW being a great game, it could also have something to do with the splashdamages forums being the only "big" place where the etqw community comes together. I am pretty sure if you would hold the community questions on crossfire WOLF:ET would win all the time. Anyway I was amazed when I found out that the v-says where missing from Brink. Hopefully we will see them back in their next game because the results from this vote clearly show that the fanbase wants them.
Posted on 16 February, 2012 - 23:49
I voted for a hybrid system, but leaning heavily towards context based vsays for as much as possible. The obvious one being incapped players pressing fire to call out a medic nearby. It's a lot more effective than hearing this automated "need medic" you tend to ignore easily because of the action. Perhaps even a vsay key bind you can use to easily play a context based "need ammo", "need health", "need medic", et cetera. You'd still have the vsay menu as a separate bind.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 00:08
A hybrid. An extensive V-say list, as well as automatic communication that can be disabled. It needs to be more extensive than QW if possible. V-Says are awesome. They tend to get over-rated sometimes, and teams still need voice chat for any serious match, but they are great for pubs. Also, QW vsays worked fine on consoles. I don't know why people think it wouldn't work. Its just a little slower....just like aiming on consoles. At the same time, I actually liked the automatic chatter in Brink...such as the "thank you" messages. It made the game feel very alive and colorful. But it is an aesthetic thing for adding color to the experience, not something to improve coordination. There should be an option for people to disable the automatic stuff, especially for comp games. Similar to graphical options... a lot of players will want turn everything off.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 03:55
I went ahead and bound chat phrases in Brink because the automated chatter just became meaningless background noise that was better muted (I don't play competition btw). This was essentially the same problem as with the HUD. Overusing cues, both auditory and visual, means the important ones have to shout to not get ignored. Enemies and grenades literally need to glow and the speakers need to blow out when taking fire to show up over the other cues. Also, automating "thanks" seems like a horrible term devaluation to me.
V-Says are awesome. They tend to get over-rated sometimes, and teams still need voice chat for any serious match, but they are great for pubs. Also, QW vsays worked fine on consoles. I don't know why people think it wouldn't work. Its just a little slower....just like aiming on consoles.
Imo the only vsays that have some teamplay value in etqw are "enemy disguised as me" and "medic," then as much because it flashes a minimap icon. The rest don't add much to coordination in a public game that would not be more easily and convincingly typed or spoken. Some, like inc arty or armor spotted, would be somewhat useful if the audio portion was location limited rather than global. Coordination is not why they are fun.
Dude, you're the one that brought real life scenarios into the mix, only yourself to blame for that one (ok I kinda did, but mine was tongue in cheek). I'd rather have control of when I can shout it, which we know is perfectly plausable and a far better options than voice spam to a point where it's usefulness is completely overridden.
As you correctly note, I was following your reasoning when you introduced realism to argue against the game mechanic (when I pointed to similar cues), and, as I and others have already said, this is an audio cue that reduces the effectiveness of what is a one-hit-kill splash weapon. We could introduce a context vsay button that, depending on the situation, says "Medic!", "Need ammo!", or, if we were holding a grenade, "Grenade!". The launch audio cue could then, as I already suggested, be changed to a distinctive mechanical sound effect. Obviously, if "Grenade!" could be heard by both teams as in etqw, it would mainly be used as a feint.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 06:30
Also, automating "thanks" seems like a horrible term devaluation to me. Imo the only vsays that have some teamplay value in etqw are "enemy disguised as me" and "medic," then as much because it flashes a minimap icon. The rest don't add much to coordination in a public game that would not be more easily and convincingly typed or spoken. Some, like inc arty or armor spotted, would be somewhat useful if the audio portion was location limited rather than global. Coordination is not why they are fun.
About the "Thanks" thing..we should be able to disable it. But it does add a lot of color to a casual pub match. I like it in Brink, especially with the different accents. Its the same as high-end graphical options, or things like lens flare. A lot of times, they probably just get in the way. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be offered... but just that we should be able to disable them. As for using vsays for coordination...I find them very helpful in Tribes: Ascend. Asking people to defend the flag, or get the flag, or repair the generator, or chase the flag carrier, etc, helps a lot in making sure that someone is doing each of the important roles. Being able to say that we need an engineer, or or asking someone to capture a forward spawn, is very helpful in pubs. Especially since the team that "guides their beginner players" the best in a pub usually wins. A lot of times in casual pub matches in Brink, I find myself typing "Focus on the objective"..."Stay with the bot".."Grenade the objective"..etc. Yea, vsays have fun uses as well...but if they aren't improving general coordination then either the game doesn't need coordination, or the vsay system isn't extensive enough.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 07:04
I think RtCW had the right amount of vsays split into the likes of requests, statements, info and replies. Too many and you run the risk of turning finding the right vsay into a game itself. In all honesty I really don't like automated voice overs, anything important that the team need to know about the commander handled in ET such as 'Dynamite planted' and 'Command post lost'... quick, snappy VO's and not being reminded every 10 secs by someone that sounds completely pissed off at you what the objective is while the HUD is also flooded with the same info like in Brink.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 07:24
This is the most important questions asked in this string of polls so far. Communication makes these team based shooters. And of course you need VOIP for proper matches, but for pub play, VSAYS make a huge, important difference. I voted "let me trigger them myself". Here ETQW really shined. The commands were tactically and strategically useful, but also good for some comeraderie, teasing and joking around after / during a match. I switched my vsays to letters rather than numbers ("VTE" rather than "451") and found them much easier to learn and remember that way. I'd recommend that be the default. In short, my opinion: no-vsay, no fun. I simply couldn't believe it when Brink didn't have vsays -- even after patches!! HOW? WHY? Such a fundamental error IMO. Did Bethesda say "NO VSAYS"? The automated chatter in brink quickly fell into the background -- it just didn't seem like part of the game I was playing. As already said, "enemy spotted" don't mean s*** when there are enemies everywhere. One other communication idea that I think would be great in ETQW2 would be for every character to have a laser pointer indicator thingermabobbie. So you can communicated destinations / objectives visually to your team mates. "You got *that* way, and I'll flank them from over *there*!" You could also include an upgrade your laser pointer / indicator thingy to be a kind that the enemy cannot see. etc etc. The more there is to learn in a game, the longer its playability -- no? Brink just removed so much, reducing the learning time to such a short period compared to ETQW. Deems
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 08:00
I voted self triggered V-says but wouldn't mind a few automated sounds or voices for certain things. I didn't really mind the automated "Grenaaaadeee" in QW when throwing one, but wouldn't be opposed to not having it, or replacing it with a sound of maybe the pin being sprung out (or charged in stroggs case) and also making the sound of them hitting walls or the ground being more profound etc. I loved the atmosphere in games where people would be using the "extra" v-says a lot. Especially after doing something silly or after a good shot etc etc, it added a lot to have all of those "extra" v-says. ( Strogg strogg strogg!, Oohh ohhh yeaaa yeaaa uhhh nooooooo. etc etc )
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 08:20
"Grenade" was a balancer, not a vsay. It replaces the grenade icons you see in console games, that blatantly tell you a grenade is coming. That said, Bc2 / BF3 use that 'grenaaaade' yelling thing for everything, where you dont even know if youre the one thats yelling stuff out. And then enemy finds you and youre wondering how the ****, they knew you were there. So its important to point out, while I find the grenade thing ok - its only in the etqw single instance that its ok. tldr: ETQW did it best kthxbi
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:07
I voted for a hybrid system, but leaning heavily towards context based vsays for as much as possible. The obvious one being incapped players pressing fire to call out a medic nearby. It's a lot more effective than hearing this automated "need medic" you tend to ignore easily because of the action. Perhaps even a vsay key bind you can use to easily play a context based "need ammo", "need health", "need medic", et cetera. You'd still have the vsay menu as a separate bind.
Yeah that's exactly it. I don't want to vote for hybrid as it kind of suggest a 50/50 thing. But I rather see it have a 80/20 ratio. The automated ones should then be limited to really broad things like for objectives and command posts "I'm arming the charge" "I'm capturing a command post" or whenever the team lacks an essential class "We need x class". Everything else should be a vSay, people are rarely interested in whether or not you're planting mines.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:10
"Grenade" was a balancer, not a vsay. It replaces the grenade icons you see in console games, that blatantly tell you a grenade is coming. That said, Bc2 / BF3 use that 'grenaaaade' yelling thing for everything, where you dont even know if youre the one thats yelling stuff out. And then enemy finds you and youre wondering how the ****, they knew you were there. So its important to point out, while I find the grenade thing ok - its only in the etqw single instance that its ok. tldr: ETQW did it best kthxbi
No it didn't, it replaced the bouncing metal noise the grenade made when hitting the ground in Rtcw/W:ET.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:16
Yeah that's exactly it. I don't want to vote for hybrid as it kind of suggest a 50/50 thing. But I rather see it have a 80/20 ratio. The automated ones should then be limited to really broad things like for objectives and command posts "I'm arming the charge" "I'm capturing a command post" or whenever the team lacks an essential class "We need x class". Everything else should be a vSay, people are rarely interested in whether or not you're planting mines.
^^^ I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. No thanks - either you get the benefit of using the vsays or you dont.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:18
No it didn't, it replaced the bouncing metal noise the grenade made when hitting the ground in Rtcw/W:ET.
My post is conscious of those reading that are unfamiliar with all of SD's games. Meaning Im trying to explain something they can relate to ;)
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:19
Vsays should be completely manual. I cant think of one example where a vsay being automatic is beneficial. I mean it sounds nice on paper to have "automated vsays" but when it comes down to it, if a vsay is automatic, it means every time a particular action happens it will play, without fail. People ignore spam naturally. Also the grenade thing is ridiculous and cannot be compared to a click sound or the sound of a rocket, shouting grenade while throwing a grenade is not the same as hearing the pin being took out. Its the difference between hearing a click when an enemy is reloading, and hearing the enemy shout "I AM RELOADING" while reloading. Takes away any sort of stealth you were going for. Since now everyone knows your position, instead of just hearing the explosion where it landed, which could be used as a diversion. All i know is that if i was trying to quietly get behind enemy lines, and had to take someone out, i wouldnt start shouting "GRENADE" or "HEADSHOT"... Manual vsays can add humour to a game, they help co-ordinate a team and can be vital in helping teammates identify threats or oppotunities. Having an automated "i need a medic" is misleading, many people are in a position where being revived would be detrimental to their team. Whereas someone manually vsaying it, shows that they think they are in a position where being revived is a viable option.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 10:43
Takes away any sort of stealth you were going for.
Its supposed to give away your position. For me its great, as it stops all the bads that rely on nades.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:07
Its supposed to give away your position. For me its great, as it stops all the bads that rely on nades.
That's the risk of not covering your own ass or playing as a team. Someone makes the effort to get behind the enemy and flank them, then get penalized by a stupid system and the lazy player/team get a reprieve.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:34
Manual vsays all the way. If any auto vsays then teamchat only since they give away stealth. When playing BF3 I love it when my character shouts stuff at my teammates when I revive them, but on the other hand it gives away my position. Grenades in BF3 are terrible if a grenade is near you you automatically yell at the top of your lungs. I general use grenades like motion sensors to pinpoint where an enemy is in a room. Another important point is that the vsays have to be extremely fast to execute, faster than using VOIP otherwise they are pointless. In W:ET it took a fraction of a second to activate a vsay, in BF3 it takes 1 to 2 seconds to use the commorose and I generally hate it. I don't know how QW worked since I never played it.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:37
That's the risk of not covering your own ass or playing as a team. Someone makes the effort to get behind the enemy and flank them, then get penalized by a stupid system and the lazy player/team get a reprieve.
An effort to backrage someone? Sorry doesnt compute :( And to counter the laziness comment, I suggest they put a bit of effort into learning how to aim, instead of throwing nades. btw im kidding sif laziness has any relevance :)
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:45
An effort to backrage someone? Sorry doesnt compute :( And to counter the laziness comment, I suggest they put a bit of effort into learning how to aim, instead of throwing nades. btw im kidding sif laziness has any relevance :)
If you let someone slip by you, why should they be punished by an automated system they have no control over shouting out and giving away their location? Call it what you want to justify your dislike for it, doesn't change who's to blame and who should capitalize from it.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:53
^^^ I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. No thanks - either you get the benefit of using the vsays or you dont.
Could you elaborate, I don't think I got your point.
That's the risk of not covering your own ass or playing as a team. Someone makes the effort to get behind the enemy and flank them, then get penalized by a stupid system and the lazy player/team get a reprieve.
You have the benefit of being unnoticed until you take action. Shooting gives away your position with tracers, hit indicators and sounds. A silent grenade has none of these and would therefore be a no-brainer for the sneaky player.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 11:55
This is why it exists in the game. Say you sneak up behind me and you shoot instead of prime a nade. Because each faction has a different set of sounds, I immediately know you are attacking me after the first bullet. It gives me an opportunity to either attack you, or run away. Im inclined to attack though, not that its important. Had you primed a nade instead, regardless of whether theres nade shouting, theres a great possibility that you will kill me. With nade shouting it still allows me to respond just before the nade hits, in the same way that shooting does. It also means that to get me with that nade, it needs to be timed pretty well. :) Now my reasons for liking it or disliking it is kind of irrelevant really. But my understanding of the mechanic and why its there isnt.
You have the benefit of being unnoticed until you take action. Shooting gives away your position with tracers, hit indicators and sounds. A silent grenade has none of these and would therefore be a no-brainer for the sneaky player.
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Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 12:02
And grenades are limited, require timing, make a noise when they land and expose the player once thrown as he has no gun out. The no brainer is the players that allow him to do all of that in the first place.... more gamers wanting a helping hand for failings I see.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 12:24
Could you elaborate, I don't think I got your point.
Yeh sure, i interpreted what you posted to mean that when you plant a charge, it automatically tells team-mates thats what you are doing. For me, my preference would be to have that as manual, to reward those players that make the effort to comm these things. Also I dont want to have to decipher which things are automated and which arent, because that will likely prompt me to ignore everything.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 12:35
Would it help if the commander/general announcer said these things? "Alright we're planting the charge". I mean ETQW already does this to a great extend, I just think that role can be bigger.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 13:20
I thought the role was big enough in ETQW. Major instances announced from the commander that the team needs to know about is fine, such as dynamite planted/defused and command posts taken/lost. Anything else beyond that that you think should be used to make the role bigger?
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 13:37
Would it help if the commander/general announcer said these things? "Alright we're planting the charge". I mean ETQW already does this to a great extend, I just think that role can be bigger.
In terms of differentiating automated and manual yes absolutely. In terms of the actual events the commander communicates on - it should be information that both teams get at the same time. So "Alright we're planting the objective" is too much info for the other team. Having 2 commanders like in Brink could allow for stuff like that, but I want players who arent necessarily the best at infantry to at least have the capacity to impose themselves or have the chance to influence the game via vsays and comms.
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 13:40
All possible voice messages are available via nested lists, and I’ll trigger them all myself. V56 :D
Posted on 17 February, 2012 - 21:30
No auto chat fr me, I'd rather be in charge myself! Just add an option for those who want it. See no reaon to limit it either way if it can be optional (and that goes for some of the other votes too).
Posted on 18 February, 2012 - 01:01
A few examples of the awesomeness of manual v-says: Heal Meee! Attaaack! Attaackkkk! Brink had none of this.
Posted on 18 February, 2012 - 12:43
No auto chat fr me, I'd rather be in charge myself! Just add an option for those who want it. See no reaon to limit it either way if it can be optional (and that goes for some of the other votes too).
The reason not to make auto-chat an option is that people no longer know which messages are automated and which ones are manual, this reduces the value of them. In UT2k4 people had the option to automatically taunt every time they killed someone. This made the taunts completely meaningless simply because they now applied to every kill no matter how trivial.
Posted on 18 February, 2012 - 13:28
Automated = audio spam. I wonder how many people left brink due to overuse of the word "brothers"...people hate audio spam. Hearing grenade every other second, if we ignore the tactical side.....is just annoying. If your going to have an involuntary noise for grenades it should just be the sound of the pin being taken out, if they are close enough to hear it, and paying attention, they deserve to be aware. If not then, then the grenade thrower shouldnt have their position given away.
Posted on 18 February, 2012 - 17:59
I never like commanders yelling at me, but all of the different thank you messages, and buffing messages in different accents were really nice, in my opinion, for adding color to casual play. I would suggest that you restrict the automatic messages to colorful stuff and allow people to disable it...that way nobody can complain, because they aren't missing any key information if they do disable it. Then the manual vsays should have all of the stuff that is actually useful.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 00:16
The reason not to make auto-chat an option is that people no longer know which messages are automated and which ones are manual, this reduces the value of them. In UT2k4 people had the option to automatically taunt every time they killed someone. This made the taunts completely meaningless simply because they now applied to every kill no matter how trivial.
Well I was referring to the ETQW tactical stuff NOT taunting (which I totally agree is an annoyance). Sorry for not being clear about that.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 01:44
^^ his point is the same regardless of whether its tactical. :)
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 03:41
Well I was referring to the ETQW tactical stuff NOT taunting (which I totally agree is an annoyance). Sorry for not being clear about that.
I understand that. But there's not a practical difference. It's only demonstrating that once a message can either be automatic or manual players won't be able to tell which is which. This completely takes out the value of manual messages.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 08:40
Bilko: automated vsays dont consider everything that is actually happening in the game, with all of its tactical nuances. For example it may look at your HP hit below a certain threshold and autosay - i need a medic.. when in that particular moment attracting a medic would do more harm than good. When the medic comes to help and sees 5 guys waiting there ready to shoot at him, with you incapped on the ground, hes unlikely to react to any auto-vsay again. When its manual an average player would not call for a medic, because they would see 5 guys waiting there. When they die, they wont ask for a revive.. so that no medics blindly run to their death. - refer to incapitation thread ;) So with all that said, when theres both auto-vsays AND manual vsays --- players will ignore ALL vsays as they cant differentiate them. If devs decide to give them different sounds and text colours, players will ignore the auto.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 13:31
Based on my 8 year WolfET in-game experience, I consider first option of this poll as spam in most cases. 1) There is a lot situations when player runs out of ammo, but shouting out `I need ammo!' wont change situation due to some reason - eg. there is no field ops, fops is too far away, etc. 2) Also there is common situation when player runs out of ammo but there is no actual need for additional ammo because.. he has low HP and will die very early, or player is on „one-way mission“. auto-requests for ammo in cases mentioned above would generate voice traffic which would help to nobody - especially second one which is very common. (situation is almost same with medics and their „health care“) However, someone could find auto-requests as good thing no matter what. So everyone could be satisfied if one can turn off sounds/text generated by auto-requests.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 18:47
@tokamak: Agree there is no difference on the receiving end but from the sending end there is. @Humate: I'm well aware of about the difference between the v-say and automatic shoutout. /// As I already stated I prefer the RtCW manual before any automated way. But if a server admin actually wants to have automatic tactical shoutouts e.g. call for a medic, then by all means make it optional. Back in the RtCW we had the spammers who just couldn't stop shouting for ammo the millisecond they spawned in. We usually enabled the spam filter and got rid of the problem. Seems like it is rather about if a player can't bother to find out what v-say combo to press or could it be that the console generation is just to used to get all served in stead of actually learning the more advanced features or maybe it's not even implemented on consoles due to restrictions of the controller. I don't own any consoles so I can't really tell.
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 22:06
Bilko: I wasn't describing the differences b/w auto and manual. :) I was stating that we simply cant have them as optional for the reasons I described. As you said this:
Just add an option for those who want it. See no reaon to limit it either way if it can be optional
:stroggtapir:
Posted on 19 February, 2012 - 22:49
@tokamak: Agree there is no difference on the receiving end but from the sending end there is.
It's not about the nice cozy feeling you get from sending messages all over the place but about the value the message have to the receivers.
Posted on 20 February, 2012 - 09:05
Automated of course! I'm not messing with buttons during gunfight, LOL. And if I'm gonna add more details I'll use my headset! No voicelist can ever be detailed enough, and the rest is better when i'ts automated, so you don't have to say everything all the time. Automated messages are more basic and arguably just informational, people will not instantly react to them unless you specify. YES, I'm talking for console gamers. We have our headsets plugged into the controller, so we will add details ourselves, I'm not gonna press button combinations to say 'I'm attacking' or something like that! I know messing with something like Ventrillo or 'Push to speak' is annoying, so PC players will need some special list mechanism.
Posted on 20 February, 2012 - 15:29
Il trigger them myself ofc There is nothing like V55, V57, V21 and V54 :) That was a fail in Brink
Posted on 20 February, 2012 - 15:33
Automated messages are more basic and arguably just informational, people will not instantly react to them unless you specify.
That's the problem, that reduces them to meaningless chatter. Great for immersion but totally useless. There are better ways for cosmetic sounds, like TF2 or L4D did.
Posted on 21 February, 2012 - 09:03
That's the problem, that reduces them to meaningless chatter. Great for immersion but totally useless. There are better ways for cosmetic sounds, like TF2 or L4D did.
I thought Brink did cosmetic sounds a lot better than TF2. Play TF2 right after playing Brink, or vice-versa, and I think you will agree. It seems like there are a lot more quips for a variety of things (you hear less of the same stuff every match than you do in TF2..."stand on the point!"), they blend in well, and do a better job of adding color even without taking as much of a comical tone as TF2 does. TF2 has a better commander voice though, but I hate commanders yelling at me. But if you just mean that TF2 did it better by be purely cosmetic and not trying to give much meaningful information, then I agree. I like color and personality...but at the same time, its better if it fits with the context, and in trying to fit them with the context, you might make some of the quips sound like they are trying to give meaningful information. I think it automatic quips should be purely cosmetic, to give color to a casual pub match, and we should be able to turn them off. And there should be a clear difference between V-says and automatic quips. I think that automatic quips should be proximity chat... you only hear them when you are standing nearby, and even then they are softer. They are softer the further away you are. V-says should sound like they are coming in over the radio.
Posted on 21 February, 2012 - 14:29
TF2's sounds were environmental rather than team-wide. That's what made them cosmetic and immersive as it gets more hectic as the combat grows.
Posted on 21 February, 2012 - 19:11
Yea, I guess Brink's automatic quips are a mixture of team radio chat and environmental/proximity chat. They should all be environmental chat, and let the manual v-says come over the radio.
Posted on 21 February, 2012 - 23:47
As an aside from the current topic but related to vsay spam and "etqw did it best", I like the idea of limiting class specific requests like "Medic!" or "We need a radar" to being heard only by the pertinent class. These are useful in saying "we need more medics" or "we need a competent covert ops" but that meaning is redundant and, imo, more wasteful than useful.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 01:03
Things like asking for medpacks or a medic or ammo (the small redundant tasks) should be performed by the game automatically. Let me do the stuff like telling what objective I'm doing etc. myself.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 13:55
I definitely think there is room for both manual and automated v-says in the game. Determining which should be automated though, is a different matter altogether. I think people will always be split on what should be automated and what they want to handle themselves. Maybe they should just be limited to either global team or game events... either way - I'm hybrid.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 16:30
Things like asking for medpacks or a medic or ammo (the small redundant tasks) should be performed by the game automatically. Let me do the stuff like telling what objective I'm doing etc. myself.
In RtCW you had to ask for ammo/med packs yourself, this meant that the only way a medic or field ops knew you wanted ammo or health was by you vsaying or them looking at you... an indicator would appear above your head if you asked and an icon would appear on the compass to let them know where you were. Most importantly, it kept the HUD CLEAR! No stupid health bars constantly over your team mates heads, no icons littering the screen the whole time even though they didn't need to be there. I get the feeling that the auto-chatter did nothing for the game and they felt the need to have this constant readout in place as automatic stuff gets ignored. Look at this Brink screenshot, it's an absolute mess. I think you've got it the wrong way round, auto-chatter should be left for when you're engaging the objective etc because the whole team DOESN'T need to know all the arbitrary stuff that the player has time to vsay anyway if need be. Where did it suddenly come from that players need to know every single thing happening audibly and visually? Did gamers get stupid or lazy? Do devs think they're stupid and lazy and added it, or did they add it because the gamers are stupid and lazy? Random rant, apologies.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 18:10
I may be wrong DA, but isn't that just showing the name and class type of the player respectively? I don't see anybody requesting ammo or anything like that in the screenshot posted above... and to add to that, the indicators don't seem that much different than the normal healthbars of your teammates in any other SD game, other than maybe the size of the font. I've been known to be crazy too, though.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 20:24
I may be wrong DA, but isn't that just showing the name and class type of the player respectively? I don't see anybody requesting ammo or anything like that in the screenshot posted above... and to add to that, the indicators don't seem that much different than the normal healthbars of your teammates in any other SD game, other than maybe the size of the font. I've been known to be crazy too, though.
The health bars and team icons are there permanently even when in other parts of the map and not in view, those bars show constant read outs of health (and ammo when you're a soldier), in other SD games the info isn't shown unless you point your crosshair at your team mate... though to be fair, I said RtCW which isn't a SD game. The only time perm icons are displayed over a team mate is when they ask for health or ammo and are in the players FOV, meaning (in theory) it shows when they want the medic or fops to know when they need a top up, not when the game decides.
Posted on 22 February, 2012 - 20:36
Random rant, apologies.
No, prerecorded chatter should call out the support stuff and leave objective coordination to voip, with optional vsays.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 00:18
^Oh dear. The only improvement that can be made to the etqw system, is to also have the vsays listed in the binds section. That way players can easily bind one to the mouse or an accessible key without too much hassle or any config knowledge. Theres no excuse about inconvenience then.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 00:25
No, prerecorded chatter should call out the support stuff and leave objective coordination to voip, with optional vsays.
Nonsense, many games have proven that player driven chatter is effective, the one game that had it all automated proved that automated chatter isn't.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 07:26
Yea, I guess Brink's automatic quips are a mixture of team radio chat and environmental/proximity chat. They should all be environmental chat, and let the manual v-says come over the radio.
I really like that. I'm sure the sound guys are able to make the difference distinctive.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 07:43
Nonsense, many games have proven that player driven chatter is effective, the one game that had it all automated proved that automated chatter isn't.
I believe that classifies as an opinion. And there is more than one game with automated chatter. I want it to take care of the trivial stuff like calling out for ammo and medpacks or spotted enemies etc. while leaving communication about objectives and what I am doing to me.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 07:49
3 well received games vs 1 not well received game is an opinion? That's a new one. I guess you're right, it's the opinion of all the players that played it and shows the masses didn't like what they saw.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 08:16
Understandable if console players dosent want vsays but beeing a pc player and not wanting them just seems well strange I like the idea mentioned earlier that v21 (I need a medic) should only be heard by medics, awesome idea. same with all other classrelated vsays but we should be able to do it ourselves, the other thing is just spam, often i die and dosent cry for help because my ammo is low, so im pretty satisfied with a respawn. Only autmatic messages should be objective oriented messages like team a has just breached the maingate get back there and help defending it etc.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 09:51
Sorry Lakersforce, but I'm with DAUK. auto chatter I simply ignore because you hear the same thing all the time. The game doesn't take in account wether it is at all appropriate to actually give someone health at that time. If it's manual, it means it's a priority because the player took the time to say it. If it's automatic, you have no way to judge how critical it is. Most of the time it's not critical, so you'll just skip it altogether and go by what you see. I'd rather have no 'I need a medic' than automatic 'I need a medic'.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 09:53
Only autmatic messages should be objective oriented messages like team a has just breached the maingate get back there and help defending it etc.
Exactly, team critical info should be auto-chattered so it's guaranteed that the team receive the important info relating to the game... the whole team NEED to know when the objective is being attacked, they NEED to know when you're needing assistance completing the objective and I don't trust the players to inform me every time, and this is where the commander worked well in ET/ETQW. The whole team DON'T need to know when you're reloading, when you need health, when you need ammo. I'm not sure I would limit medic calls to medics only etc, knowing when a team mate is down and needs potential cover so they don't get gibbed while a medic is on route can be quite important, and the only way you'll know is if they're shouting for it.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 10:15
I want it to take care of the trivial stuff like calling out for ammo and medpacks or spotted enemies etc. while leaving communication about objectives and what I am doing to me.
There are very few things less trivial than calling for ammo, health or spotting enemies...I mean you just named three of the most important things to a player; their health, their ammo, and where the enemies are. You dont want these things to be ignored by your team-mates because the alert system auto spams them with too many alerts. Also why is everyone so lazy that they cant even let their team know where an enemy is anymore? Or that they need health? You say you want vsays for co-ordinating around an objective...i would suggest that voip was a much better means to co-ordinate around an objective, simply vsaying "attack" or "ill plant on the objective" does little for your team. Whereas vsays are a much better means to alert players of ammo/revive needs, and anything that shows indicators or enemies up on the map (even if your on voip, its often alot easier to just vsay for health or ammo, since otherwise you have to describe your location to teammates).
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 12:05
I believe that classifies as an opinion. And there is more than one game with automated chatter. I want it to take care of the trivial stuff like calling out for ammo and medpacks or spotted enemies etc. while leaving communication about objectives and what I am doing to me.
Nope, trivial information is predicated on the moment. In a manual system, when something is considered trivial - it doesnt get commed. Thats the value of vsays being manual.
Posted on 23 February, 2012 - 18:36
Nope, trivial information is predicated on the moment. In a manual system, when something is considered trivial - it doesnt get commed. Thats the value of vsays being manual.
To be fair, that's true WHEN idiots aren't spamming random **** for no reason, nonstop. To clarify my point, the argument here seems to be something is commed when it's important or relevant to the status of the current objective... but like some people may tune out automated chatter, I tend to tune out almost all chatter when it's lost in the sea of idiots. There are extremes to both sides. /devils advocate (but still best friend)
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 17:39
Always quashed with spam protection put in place which happened eventually in ETQW/ET did it not? (Cant remember)
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 18:08
Yeah typically there was spam protection, and I suppose one could argue it falls onto the individual to seek out servers that enforce them but I can't say for certain that they were or were not turned on by default. Spam protection wasn't an exact science either, especially when left up to the devices of server admins. I had more than a few occasions where I would indicate to somebody that I was a medic, they'd come for health packs, exchange the normal 'thanks/welcome' and I would then try to hit another vsay like "defend the objective" or whatever and get spam filtered. Clearly, the defend the objective vsay is the most important and of course it got lost in the filter because I a) Indicated I was a medic so the idiot in front of me with no health would stop running away and take some god damn health packs. b) I would reply with the 'you're welcome' to try to drill home that yes, I am playing a medic and I'm consciously TRYING to keep you alive, so get with the program. I suppose those are extreme cases, like most of my replies here seem to be lately hahah. All I really wanted to say that it wasn't an exact science but yes, spam filtering can work when done properly.
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 18:21
To be fair, that's true WHEN idiots aren't spamming random **** for no reason, nonstop. To clarify my point, the argument here seems to be something is commed when it's important or relevant to the status of the current objective... but like some people may tune out automated chatter, I tend to tune out almost all chatter when it's lost in the sea of idiots. There are extremes to both sides. /devils advocate (but still best friend)
Yes thats right, you could have a bunch of players spamming vsays, you could even have a bunch of players using the wrong vsays. The difference is, once a player has confronted specific players that do this, they can be ignored. While the players that do use them appropriately still get the benefits of using them properly. In an automated system, the player cannot make the distinction - so everything is ignored. edit: and yes there was spam protection for etqw
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 19:13
In an automated system, the player cannot make the distinction - so everything is ignored.
See that's where I disagree. The automated system is still delivering messages that are relevant to the status of the objective. I don't understand why they would be ignored. Yes, the automated messages of 'needing ammo' or a 'medic' can easily get lost in the background, but objective specific messages aren't. At least, not to me and I still don't understand why they apparently are to you, or to anybody else. There are certain keywords that always stick out, and as long as they're not being used over and over (via vsay spam or automated "uselessness") I can't imagine how they're possibly ignored. You suggest to ignore players who spam? How do you do this, exactly? Do you suddenly become blissfully unaware of any of their vsays? Do you physically /ignore them in game so no communication from them is received? Or do you just roll on servers that don't typically run into these people? Whatever you do doesn't change the fact that the system can still be abused, especially if an average player has to consciously located servers where they're less likely to find offending players or where they have to mute them. The way I see it, there are potential faults in all of the systems and I don't think any one game has done it perfectly yet.
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 20:27
Thats ok you can disagree. But you are in the minority of those that have played SD's games. How do you ignore bad vsayers? Simple. Their names come up on the screen with their request. Anytime that person says - "need a medic" the player knows not to respond to the vsay with action. Im surprised the question even needs to be asked to be honest :)
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 20:38
I like how in Quake Live you can drop the console and type /block playername and you don't see any of their chats after that.
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 20:47
Hahah well I thought you knew what I meant, where their request is still noticed! I will say that it's my favorite kind of ignore, though. It reminds me of the 'headshake' in ET where you'd roll up to the player and shake your head at them. Great stuff.
Posted on 24 February, 2012 - 20:50
I thought you knew what I meant, where their request is still noticed!
Should manual-vsays cease to exist because theres a possibility that players dont know how to use them properly? I mean if youre playing with a "sea of idiots" chances are they arent that great at team-based games as well right? Maybe SD shouldnt make team-based games... there might be too many idiots that just dont play the game as intended. Now I know that sounds retarded, but the point should be pretty clear. /devils advocate
Posted on 26 February, 2012 - 07:16
3 well received games vs 1 not well received game is an opinion? That's a new one. I guess you're right, it's the opinion of all the players that played it and shows the masses didn't like what they saw.
Yes, and that is what we are dealing with around here: opinions! Your statement is a generalisation! /peace
Posted on 26 February, 2012 - 13:44
I like how in Quake Live you can drop the console and type /block playername and you don't see any of their chats after that.
WOLF:ET has it as well but there the command is /ignore. http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/121916167-4.jpg
Posted on 26 February, 2012 - 16:25